MangaTranslation.com Forum Index MangaTranslation.com
Manga Translation by fans, for fans.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Yet another thread

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MangaTranslation.com Forum Index -> Miwa Shirow's Dogs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cg
Yuurei
Yuurei


Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:51 am    Post subject: Yet another thread Reply with quote

Hey, creiz here.
By way of introduction: everybody makes mistakes from time to time, I'm no exception, that's why when dealing with Japanese, a language so unlike any European languages, I usually review my understanding and my translations later, after sufficient time has passed. And sometimes I end up correcting them.

I am simply loving DOGS - adorable characters, a well thought-out plot, beautiful art and magnificent atmosphere. Of course, I'm a proud owner of all 5 tankos of D:B&C and a volume of orignal Dogs story. Rereading 'em quite often.

I've read through the last two - now, thanks to you, three - chapters, and there're some things I'd like to point out. I'm not going to account for things like English stylistics, grammar, etc, just the meaning of phrases.

Chapter 48
Not much text there. Overall, correct. My only suggestion would be try to pay a bit more attention to various modifiers and reflect the meaning nuances brought by them in your translation. Like in this phrase on p5: Kono *kurai* de shinu na yo, Heine. This 'kurai' adds, in particular, that Giovanni doesn't want Heine to die from *such an insignificant (from Gio's pov)* damage.

Chapter 49
p1: Did you get that the cig Dave gave Badou was chocolate? Sorry, I just wasn't sure from the translation that you did, so I decided to mention it. Badou wanted a real cigarette, yet Dave tricked him and gave him a chocolate one. This is a reference to the separate oneshot "White cigarette and bubblegum" (I'm sure you read it) where Dave says the same thing if paraphrased a bit. At the same time it's a link to the chapter content that follows (when Badou substitutes real cigarettes with chocolate ones).

p3: The case of mixing up kanji - it's not 街, it's 術. Can happen to anyone. The whole phrase will be You easily fell for his hypnosis and gave me a slug.

p.4: 昔 is linked with 軍施設 (as an attribute), it's not on its own, so it's the millitary facility that existed in the underground *in past*, not Badou's brother investagating it *in past*.

度「仕入れ」に勝手に付いてったことがあった
Good. Almost correct. 仕入れ is the warehouses from one of Badou's flashbacks (don't remember what chapter from, sorry) to where he and Dave usually lured their opponents. And yes, once Badou on his own decided to follow Dave there.

そん時 足を引っ張って兄貴は死んじまったのさ
And that time Badou got under Dave's feet (足を引っ張る), and Dave got killed because of this.

なあダンナ あんた この街がまだ近隣の都市とくっついて 大きな国だった頃のこと知ってるか?
Danna is more like... 'master'. It's a vernacular, but it's still pretty respectful, especially coming from Badou.
くっつく means "to keep close to", or, in this case, "to keep close connections with", so we get the meaning: Do you remember the times when one big country still existed and our city (being a part of this big country) still kept close connections with other neighboring cities?

p5: 俺もあの劇場であの野郎とやり合ってドジった上に死に損なっちまった。後には引けんさ。
Ah, a pretty tricky one, got me thinking. The meaning of Mihai's words is as follows: I'm a fine one, too, to be sure - having screwed up like this engaging in a chit-chat with this bastard in that theater - but YOU almost ended up dead there (regardless of my screwing up). And next time you may end up dead for real. If you need more explanation on why this is what he says, I'll be happy to try to provide it.

p9: かなりやられてるな
Not sure what you meant, but just in case the meaning is: The city took a great deal of damage, can be paraphrased in a lot of ways.

p15: 彼が何だって言うんだい
No, Heine didn't say anything to anyone. This sentence can be divided into 2 parts: 彼が何だ and って言うんだい. How would you translate these parts independently of each other? Obviously: 1) What is he? 2) So you're trying to say...? Now merge 'em and you'll get what Lisa asked here: Is this your way of asking me "What is he"?

彼が呼んだと?
Same as with the previous. You're saying that it was him who called them here?

p18: 今のこの街とあんたの考えがさ
Your translation will do, but just a quick note: just like 思い means not only "thoughts", but "feelings" as well, 考え also means "intentions".

カルナバルの件もカルセリーノ一族の件もね
FYI: "Carnaval" is a club (or rather a brothel) that was owned by Melwin Scrooge and got trashed by Heine and Badou behind-the-scene in the very beginning of the manga.

p21:
どうでもよくなったんじゃない
The whole Naoto's encouraging monologue is not a difficult one, but is a real pain in the ass when you're trying to word what she meant in any other language... And this particular phrase is the icing on the cake. It's a negation of a negation, as どうでもいい is "I don't care/ Whatever" and then we still have じゃない on our hands here. So the double negation = "I care", and, using the previous context, we get the following meaning: I've come to care (about something other than my chasing after my past). And continuing: But I think this is exactly how wanting to protect something should feel. Something like that. Yeah. Naoto wins the first prize for the shortest, yet surprisingly long-winded speech in DOGS.

Chapter 50
p1: お膳立ては予定通りしてやった
無駄にされちゃ困るね
In the second phrase Herbst's keeps talking about preparations (yes, お膳立て means "setting the table", but taken figuratively it also means "preparations") he mentioned in his first phrase. And in the first phrase of his he's not talking about Giovanni, but rather about himself. And it's generally better to translate this construction without mentioning who's the one doing it all, for instance: Preparations went as planned.
無駄にされる means simply "to waste". Thus, Herbst's second phrase: It would be quite unfortunate if all these preparations went to waste.

p12: 抜かりはない
More like There can't be a miss/Preparations are flawless, something like that. But I guess "No escape" could be viewed as the sense development technique here.


So, what advise I can give you. First, sticking to the wordings that are as close to original as possible is certainly not a bad thing in my opinion, but it only works in the case when you have grasped the deeper meaning as well, otherwise your sentence might not make much sense.

Also I strongly advice you to keep a keen eye on who's talking and follow the logic of sentences. It helps. Compared to your previous DOGS translations you're certainly getting better at the former:)) Now try to remember about the latter. If you feel something is falling short of being logical, the chances are your understanding is incorrect. It's the "pink elephants" rule, you know. On p4 in ch48 Mihai warns Badou about sticking his nose into a dangerous business and then he continues further elaborating on the subject. Same with p1 in ch50 with Herbst talking about preparations. Logic.

Keep up and don't let my or anyone else's comments dispirit you. Just try to glean something useful for you out of it. And practice never hurts, right?Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 2548
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detailed notes. thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 2548
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Yet another thread Reply with quote

cg wrote:
Hey, creiz here.
By way of introduction: everybody makes mistakes from time to time, I'm no exception, that's why when dealing with Japanese, a language so unlike any European languages, I usually review my understanding and my translations later, after sufficient time has passed. And sometimes I end up correcting them.


Usually time is my main constraint, and I haven't been formally studying Japanese for five or six years. (!! Kind of surprising when I think about it.) I do go back and correct my translations whenever I can.

cg wrote:


Chapter 48
Not much text there. Overall, correct. My only suggestion would be try to pay a bit more attention to various modifiers and reflect the meaning nuances brought by them in your translation. Like in this phrase on p5: Kono *kurai* de shinu na yo, Heine. This 'kurai' adds, in particular, that Giovanni doesn't want Heine to die from *such an insignificant (from Gio's pov)* damage.


I could not think of an easy way to fit that nuance into the translation. I've gone back and added a note.

cg wrote:

Chapter 49
p1: Did you get that the cig Dave gave Badou was chocolate? Sorry, I just wasn't sure from the translation that you did, so I decided to mention it. Badou wanted a real cigarette, yet Dave tricked him and gave him a chocolate one. This is a reference to the separate oneshot "White cigarette and bubblegum" (I'm sure you read it) where Dave says the same thing if paraphrased a bit. At the same time it's a link to the chapter content that follows (when Badou substitutes real cigarettes with chocolate ones).


I didn't catch that, and in fact had a hard time understanding what trap Badou fell into. I read the one-off (I think I translated it? I don't remember.) but I don't have the time to go back and read my manga often.

cg wrote:

p3: The case of mixing up kanji - it's not 街, it's 術. Can happen to anyone. The whole phrase will be You easily fell for his hypnosis and gave me a slug.


Ah, that makes a lot more sense. Isn't that a pretty liberal translation though? 術中 and 放す are not hypnosis and shoot. I went with "You totally fell into his trap and left me on my own!!"

Well, I've got to head to work but I'll get through the rest of the list later tonight or tomorrow morning. Thanks again!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
cg
Yuurei
Yuurei


Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:32 am    Post subject: Re: Yet another thread Reply with quote

FuguTabetai wrote:
Usually time is my main constraint, and I haven't been formally studying Japanese for five or six years. (!! Kind of surprising when I think about it.) I do go back and correct my translations whenever I can.
Ah, I know how lack of time can thwart so many great initiatives and make one feel miserable. I really feel for you. It's good though, that you still manage to make time to keep working on your Japanese even under your circumstances.

FuguTabetai wrote:
I could not think of an easy way to fit that nuance into the translation. I've gone back and added a note.
I see. I just meant to emphasize a bit the importance of these modifiers, maybe because it's not so rare when I see them being ignored in translations (I don't mean yours, just in general), so I decided to mention it just in case.

FuguTabetai wrote:
I didn't catch that, and in fact had a hard time understanding what trap Badou fell into. I read the one-off (I think I translated it? I don't remember.) but I don't have the time to go back and read my manga often.
I'm happy to be of help then:)))

FuguTabetai wrote:
Ah, that makes a lot more sense. Isn't that a pretty liberal translation though? 術中 and 放す are not hypnosis and shoot. I went with "You totally fell into his trap and left me on my own!!"
It's the meaning. Didn't I mention that I didn't set giving full translations to you as my goal, but rather explaining the meaning in the most comprehensible way I could find? My bad, apparently, indeed, I failed to mention it.

In the light of the above, yes, 術中 literally means 'a trick' (I wanted for it to be clear what trick Badou was talking about, i.e. Herbst's hypnosis). As for 放す: actually, it's not 放す we have here, it's the verb ぶっ放す that has the meaning "to fire a gun".
Also, please, take notice of the presence of the auxiliary verb 'kureru' in the phrase (in the form of 'kurete shimatte'). It emphasizes the direction of the action expressed by the main verb 'bubbanasu' (this auxiliary verb implies something like "you did it for/to me"). If we simply had the verb 放す, this 'kureru' wouldn't be here.


I'll always be glad to be of help. And no words are enough to express my great appreciation of the fact that you've been sharing raws for DOGS.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 2548
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Yet another thread Reply with quote

cg wrote:

p.4: 昔 is linked with 軍施設 (as an attribute), it's not on its own, so it's the millitary facility that existed in the underground *in past*, not Badou's brother investagating it *in past*.


yeah, that's pretty clear. I just wasn't being very careful here. That happens more than it should. Neutral

cg wrote:

度「仕入れ」に勝手に付いてったことがあった
Good. Almost correct. 仕入れ is the warehouses from one of Badou's flashbacks (don't remember what chapter from, sorry) to where he and Dave usually lured their opponents. And yes, once Badou on his own decided to follow Dave there.


I tried to clear that up a bit.

cg wrote:

そん時 足を引っ張って兄貴は死んじまったのさ
And that time Badou got under Dave's feet (足を引っ張る), and Dave got killed because of this.


Made that more clear too. None of my references had that meaning for 足を引っ張る.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu


Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 2548
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the comments. In particular:

cg wrote:

Keep up and don't let my or anyone else's comments dispirit you. Just try to glean something useful for you out of it. And practice never hurts, right?


That's the only reason I've kept at it for all these years.

And I should mention, this is absolutely, without a doubt, the most useful language related thing that has ever come out of all this translation. I've tried to put my stuff out there in forms that are useful for people interested in manga in Japanese, but almost never get interesting and useful feedback out of it.

I can't believe it took 11 years. Granted, the first four or five years of my stuff was pretty crap, but still.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
cg
Yuurei
Yuurei


Joined: 26 Apr 2010
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm melting like ice here from such compliments, you know))) I admire your patience - it's no small feat to follow manga such as DOGS what with it's being published only once a month and with hiatuses now and then for so many years without fail (I for one have been following DOGS for about... only 4 or 5 months? and sometimes during a month long wait I feel my patience wearing thin) and devotion to translating. And special huge thanks for providing raws in Japanese, it's thanks to you that I discovered this great (and severely underrated) manga and was able to satisfy the desire to read it in its original language.

I wish you all the luck in the world!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    MangaTranslation.com Forum Index -> Miwa Shirow's Dogs All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group