kk1 wrote:I don't need an explanation, since it was pretty darn obvious what was implied by a wedding dress and "be a real family". I'm sure she was manipulated into loving him as a surrogate father too but that still doesn't mean he wasn't manipulating her in to believing he would marry her. And whats all this sex, sex, sex? I don't think sex had anything to do with it when was the last time you heard a young girl talking about marriage and equating it with sex, like you said she's a young girl. How many little girls watching Disney movies seeing the heroine getting married at the end start thinking "oh I want to get married to a prince too...so he can pound me with his throbbing meat stick every night"? It was all amupulation anyway, Sohaku probably maipulated her many, many, ways playing on all the hopes and fears of a young girl.
So, if it wasn't sexual, what's this whole talk about "seducing Madoka"? You just proved my point.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
jaguar wrote:Volume 8? How about we reread the last chapter? Inue said that Sohaku was the one who managed the negotiations with these mercenaries you speak of. Mitsuomi did not deny it, because he knows it is true. Sohaku is the ringleader of it all. Like F, Mitsuomi was meant to be nothing but an underling of Sohaku.
Yeah, right. And who says that Inue is not exaggerating Souhaku's involvement with the reason to make Mitsuomi feel overreliant on Souhaku? I mean, here is a guy that is starting to buckle under pressure. It's just logical that Inue would try to keep him in line by stressing the importance of Souhaku for Mitsuomi. Real importance or exeggerated...
You said you agreed with Sohaku's reasoning. You said that dragons users are too dangerous. You said Sohaku did not do anything overly evil, when his main plan is to get rid of the dragon users by slaughtering the 12 families, as Madoka revealed to Jyuukenbu.
You are twisting the facts once again. It's not Souhaku's aparent current plan to kill the dragon users, but rather to steal their powers.
I disagree with the moral aspects of that plan. Part of the plan involved dethroning or killing the twelve elder heads of the families. However, Mataza's pops is a good person. He did not deserve to get kicked out.
All of the 12 flying phoenix general gods are alive except for Natsume Kaima, who was killed by Shin. So, who exactly died?
Like I said, stop twisiting the facts and pretend that Souhaku did stuff he never did.
You still have zero evidence that Ishiyumi fits the profile of a wild violent dragon user, a violent menace to society who should have his dragon forcibly removed, as dictated by Sohaku's quest.
I'm sorry, I didn't notice I have to prove anything.
On the contrary, it was your supposition that Ishiyumi is a poor darling who is being mercilesly fed to Nagi. Poor dear...
So, the weight of proof of all that lies on you. The only thing I stated was that Ishiyumi attacked Nagi first, so if Nagi took his dragon, he was only acting in self-defence. If Ishiyumi didn't want that, he shouldn't have picked a fight.
And let me remind you that Ishiyumi wasn't ordered to pick a fight by Souhaku.Ishiyumi himself said that he is fighting Nagi on his own accord to protect Mitsuomi. Same thing with Mataza. Kago just wanted him to get the chip from the Enmi's. Mataza's fight with Nagi is of Mataza's own making.
Wow, Souhaku must be soooo devious to have aranged all of that. If he in fact managed to make Ishiyumi to fall in love with Mitsuomi and try to defend him, if he managed to make Mouki Enmi to come to Natsume residense and managed to make Nagi and Aya go to Kyushyuu (instead of Maya, as was planned), if he managed all of that, my respect for him only grows.
Souhaku must be at least some kind of a demigod to create all of those opportunities.
Also, Ishiyumi was a loyal soldier for Sohaku, but Sohaku fed him as meat to Nagi anyway.
Loyal my ass! It was expressly stated that Ishiyumi took a great liking to Mitsuomi and that he was more of a Mitsuomi follower that Souhaku's. That
s right there, in the book. You should try it.
You mean, he took her in after he killed her parents and then brainwashed her with his magic. Do you think it is evil to turn a child into an orphan, brainwash her, use her, and pretend to care for her? Yes or no?
I'd answer that, if only you didn't invent stuff like "pretend to care" or "use her".
Also, Nagi doesn't want to be with Sohaku. Nagi wants to fight with Jyuukenbu. But Sohaku imprisons his own son against his will. Such imprisonment is wrong and evil.
It is not more evil that what Natsume Kaima did to Natsume Shin, or what Dougen did to Mitsuomi. In fact, it's the exact same thing. All of them were used for one purpose or another. It does NOT mean that it was not a reasonably and relatively good purpose.
Agent_Wax wrote:Psychologists would argue that there is an inherent sexual underpinning in that. I see your point though, that there may not have been. It's not stated specifically, so there is more than one way of interpreting that scene.
Psychologists also say boys want to kill their fathers and marry their mothers. And the other way around with girls. Don't read too much into it.
Well, whether someone is 'decent' or otherwise is a subjective on the part of the observer. I think what he meant is that they have not committed cruelties against other. Or rather, we have not SEEN them committing atrocities...
Then I don't understand what's with this branding of Souhaku... We don't even know his motives or the details of his "adventures", yet we presume to judge him.
To be precise, they were ex-Yorihira men.
Not exactly. The ones that attacked the temple were Takayanagi men. Emni sisters say it outright. The ones that were with Mataza in Kyushyu were Yorihira's former comrades-in-arms. It's just a minor detail, granted, but some people here have been
VERY liberal with facts, so I prefer to stick to exact things that happened in the books.
There is a lot of difference between an evil man, and a good man who does evil things. Which is he? I think it's still too early to tell.
That's the whole point I am trying to make here. I DON'T want to judge Souhaku based on several wild speculations and a GAPING lack of facts. I don't know if he is a bad guy or a good guy. We don't know enough of either his motivation to start this crusade of his, OR of his current plans.
But based on the information we DO know, I can't say that the scales can be tipped either way?
Is Souhaku bad for having killed Madoka's family? How the hell should I, or any of you, know? Do we know who these people were? Do we know why he killed them in the first place? NO. That's the answer.
Is Souhaku's chopping off of Makiko's arm bad? How should I know, if I don't know Souhaku's motivation for it. Souhaku says that she was planning to betray him and that he shall destroy the demons she gave birth to. Now tell why does everyone blame Souhaku, but nobody thinks that Makiko might have been upto no good? Nobody even considered it.
That's my main beef. Don't judge people untill you know their motives. They might still turn out to be dead wrong (as Mitsuomi turned out), but you won't know untill you find out.
Judging before you know the relative truth is simply hypocritical.