Fight 91

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:50 am

Agent_Wax wrote: And from the 2 page spread:

1). That's Ishiyumi with the bow. And the guy with the spear and phallic hair is obviously Tsumuji.

2). The lady looks like the current Hotaru obasan.

3). Shyoujyou is probably the veiled, faceless guy.

4). I think the mohawked old man is Kagiroi. Can't make out what he's holding, but it's probably a bomb or a gun...
That old fashion gun we see when Tetsuhito was born after it blew his mom's torso off?

Agent_Wax wrote: 5). The pirate is obviously Wani.

6). I think the squat monk fellow with the ugly nose is Kabuto, who runs the other White Feathers for Takayanagi.

7). That leaves the clean-cut samurai as Mawari.
Why is Wani the pirate? Are they the ones that control the navy?

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Post by EliteF22 » Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:01 am

Yes, Wani are the ones who are in charge of the naval arm, I'm still not sure though that the old guy holding the gun is Kagiroi. His sword really looks like a cutlass, which was commonly used by sailors. Plus, the pistol would make sense, since the navy would have better access to those weapons through trade. Anyone know if his clothes are were what high ranking naval officers wore?

The short monk guy just looks too similar to the current Kagiroi guy (not Tetsuhito the older short guy). Anyone know what the name of the short guy is this chapter? The person with the weird plummage attached to his/her cloak would fit in with Kabuto. He/she doesn't appear to be armed, which fits in Kabuto's role of commander and thus not requiring him/her to be armed. The skulls could be symbolic of Kabuto having the power to order troops to their deaths in war.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:13 am

The cutlass threw me off at first as well. But remember that cutlasses and sabres were the standard issue in most European militaries for over 400 years. Even today, ceremonial uniforms of many militaries including the US have a decorative sabre component.

The outfit worn by the old man is also reminescent of old European military uniforms.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/military ... dores.html

The fact that both the clothes and weapon are European is significant, as Japan was then under a self-imposed isolation. The only exception being the Portuguese (and the Dutch and Germans after 1600), because they were willing to trade something the Japanese did not have: artillery. None of the others in the picture are wearing clothing with Western influences, leading me to conclude that the mohawked old man is in fact a Kagiroi.

Oh, and as a side note, Nobunaga was the first to actively use artillery in his campaigns, resulting in his crushing victories. Something to think about ...

Anyone who still says that comics aren't educational needs to be beaten with a big stick ...
"Swallow your food whole, fool! Do you not know that mastication makes you go blind?"

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Post by FuguTabetai » Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:09 pm

Sorry I've been taking so long on this translation. I've got the first 10 or so pages up. I've been having some computer problems, and this arc just isn't very engaging for me yet.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:23 am

Thanks Fugu.
[Looks lovingly at Fugu] "I wish I knew how to quit you..." :P

Anyway, it seems that Aya was rubbing the mustard extract on the feet of the peasant girl. Remember that mustard is used to make wasabi... Evil bitch...

I've just attempted my own reading of the chapter. Understand even less tha Fugu, but, yes, it appears that Souhaku is Akechi posing as Tenkai. Aya bought the crabs, recorded some illusions on one of them using the Dragon Pupil, then had Shyoujyou send it to Souhaku. Also, the squat monk really is a Kabuto.
"Swallow your food whole, fool! Do you not know that mastication makes you go blind?"

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Post by shouki » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:35 am

http://tjtg.mangatranslation.com/TJTG_15_Trans.html

Couple of comments for Fight 91 trans so far:

Page 97, bubble 1:
Jirou: You really are the best there is ... So there really was value in killing off everyone in the red-light district


Shoujou has basically become Jirou - including his instincts and sword skills as far as I can tell. I think what happened here is Jirou's instincts reacted to the dragonfly, which impressed Shoujou. So Shoujou is complimenting Jirou's skills with the "sasuga tenka-ichi" - "just what you'd expect from the #1 [swordsman]" kinda thing.



Page 100, Bubble 8:
四六時中ã￾‚ã‚“ã￾ªã￾®ã￾¨ä¸€ç·’ã￾«ã￾„ã￾¦

If you look up 四六時中 via edict you get:
round the clock; day and night (Note: 4 x 6 = 24)

suggested trans: Having to be with her day and night.



Page 101, bubble 5:
Aya saying â€￾ã￾‚ã￾®æ–¹â€￾ (ano kata), which you've translated as "them". However, this is like a more formal/honerific way of saying "ano hito" (that person). Since Souhaku is a big-shot, she uses "ano kata" but the quotes in the line suggest sarcasim (since he's an enemy and so doesn't deserve respect). So, an indirect somewhat mocking way to refer to Souhaku.

suggested trans: Oh this again ... I just thought I would give that "gentleman" a present.
(doesn't quite work... but best I can think of so far)

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Post by FuguTabetai » Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:45 pm

Thanks for the comments. I've made some changes. I'm still working on this translation, so should get some more put up this afternoon.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:01 pm

Hm, I just dropped my PowerBook off at the Apple Store, and realized that my translation is still sitting on the Mac. So I won't be doing any more translation until my PowerBook comes back from the shop, or I figure out how to get linux to read a HFS+ journelled file system. I don't think that is currently possible though, so I'm on break for a few days. :)

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Post by Hollowshingami » Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:33 pm

Oops. :lol:

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:07 pm

there is ways ^^ sourceforge has a couple drivers to instal HFS+ support into linux. Even had one that would allow you to write to it instead of the normal just read.

but for the sake of a vacation I will link em once you get the mac back :P

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Post by Agent_Wax » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:35 pm

Fugu, one question on your translations:
Is the guy in the scholar's cap talking to Kabuto the Emperor? As in, the Emperor of Japan? Or is he a Takayanagi and Kabuto was just being extremely polite to his superior? It seems strange that actual royalty would involved in this ....
"Swallow your food whole, fool! Do you not know that mastication makes you go blind?"

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Post by lucky_me_noodle » Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:26 pm

I'm soo confuse...
I thought that was Aya!


She looks like Aya, maybe aged to about 17 like Maya.
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Post by kk1 » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:53 am

Agent_Wax wrote:Fugu, one question on your translations:
Is the guy in the scholar's cap talking to Kabuto the Emperor? As in, the Emperor of Japan? Or is he a Takayanagi and Kabuto was just being extremely polite to his superior? It seems strange that actual royalty would involved in this ....

Yeah I'm confused, who is that? Hideyoshi is Osaka castle's master (as mentioned by Honda) and is away doing something with Korea, so Oda is killed in 1582(and so is Akechi, and Tenkai is thus "born" in 1582), Osaka castle is built in 1583, Hedeyoshi invaded Korea first in 1592 in 1593 Ieyasu Tokugawa was summoned to his court in Nagoya. And "Tadaaki" talks of meeting with Ieyasu and "that guy" is always by Ieyasu's side, "that guy" I'm assuming to be Tenkai aka Souhaku.
So where is everybody? I'm assuming it's about 1593 and everyone is at Osaka castle except Kabuto and whoever he's talking to who, who as Agent Wax suggested is the Emperor-Go-Youzei who ruled from 1572-1617.

So to get everyone up to speed it seems Souhaku is backing Ieyasu Tokugawa who eventually comes to power in 1603 and starts the Tokugawa shogunate who were the real rulers of Japan until the Meiji restoration in 1868, and it seems the 12 families(well 11 and the Takayangi) are backers of the emporer who was more of a figurehead. This may explain the current situation where the Takayangi came back into power with the emporer in 1868 and Souhaku has been trying to get back the power he had during the Tokugawa era. Though that's just a guess and please anyone can correct me on any of the history I may have screwed up :wink:

I take it back I guess this is getting kinda interesting once I looked up who the hell everyone was.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:06 pm

Agent_Wax wrote:Fugu, one question on your translations:
Is the guy in the scholar's cap talking to Kabuto the Emperor? As in, the Emperor of Japan? Or is he a Takayanagi and Kabuto was just being extremely polite to his superior? It seems strange that actual royalty would involved in this ....
I don't know. So far, I don't think we've seen the emperor, as he is away on business (at Nagoya and Himeji) currently. The guy in the cap is talking to, I believe, Souhaku, who is being called "Tenkai" - like I said, I don't know what to translate that as. A name most likely, possibly a post, but he already had a post given (high Buddhist priest.)

So the second in command (Honda) is being reverntial to Souhaku, who is apparently supporting the Emperor, who we have not seen yet.

kk1 probably has a better understanding of who these people are than I do. I just don't have the time to look into this stuff. I'm moving to Japan in week, start a new job, just found out I need to find a new place to live in the first two months I'm there, and my main computer isn't working. I actually only did the translation to try to freeze my PowerBook up while I was in the Apple store (didn't work either, although it did freeze up when I got home. Taking it back today, will try to get a new motherboard.)

In the meantime, I'll keep translating on my (new off of ebay used) ThinkPad A31p which replaces my old (purchsed as new in 2002) ThinkPad A31 that died a month ago with a blown motherboard.

So I just really haven't been able to get into what is essentially an obfuscated history lesson. I'm really glad for kk1, Agent_Wax, and others here who have looked into the history a bit. It is interesting, and I wish I had the time to read up on it myself because I'm sure it would improve my translations. I don't have the time though.

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complete translation for 91 is up

Post by FuguTabetai » Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:11 pm

I'll update the links so the "current chapters" link points to the right place.

I'm not sure who the guy with that bad nose is. Who is that again? Who is the guy with the big hat he's talking to?

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Re: complete translation for 91 is up

Post by kk1 » Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:28 pm

FuguTabetai wrote:I'll update the links so the "current chapters" link points to the right place.

I'm not sure who the guy with that bad nose is. Who is that again? Who is the guy with the big hat he's talking to?
2 reasons it's probably the emperor, first his "big hat" is a tate eboshi, which was only worn by court nobles and second he keeps hiding his face(Oh! Great never actually draws it completely), you're not supposed to look at the face of the emperor.

Though from what I've read he would be referred to as tenno heika 天皇陛下-his majastey the emperor, of course Aya doesn't seem to be showing the usual reverence :oops:


Interesting translation, so Aya actually helped the little girl, and it is everyone vs Souhaku, and it is the same guy as the present Souhaku I'm assuming, and they mention taking his head. Was that the only way to kill him? I guess somehow, Mitsuomi knew that. The next chapter should be interesting, I'm hoping we get to see how Souhaku must have beat the 4 red feathers after him. Since Oh! great used the last past arc to show us how things work in the present, I'm guessing that's what he's doing this time. And if in the past the Natsumes needed the Nagi(or vice versa) to be efective, was that part of Souhaku's present plan to take over Nagi so him and Aya couldn't work together? I guess we'll (hopefully soon) see.

Oh and so Kabane is dead? I don't get that.

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Re: complete translation for 91 is up

Post by FuguTabetai » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:39 pm

kk1 wrote: Oh and so Kabane is dead? I don't get that.
The other dude (Shoujyou I think, posing as Ono Jiro Emon) said that he had "departed from this world" over 10 years ago. Maybe not really dead but departed from the world of the living. Sounds like dead to me though. Could just be more metaphorical talk though.

A lot of the language in these past chapters has been classical, and tough to follow.

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Post by EliteF22 » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:02 pm

Good job on the translation Fugu, its always appreciated.

You know Souhaku could have been using the body technique to make himself look younger in those flashbacks with Makiko and Kagiroi could also have been using it too look younger. I don't get why more people don't use it, when all it takes is just sufficient control of a person's ki.

1,000,000 troops!? Was that even possible during that time?

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Post by Strangler » Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:22 pm

1,000,000 troops!? Was that even possible during that time?
Certainely not in Japan, but exageration is something quite usual... Herodote told that 5.322.000 persians were invading Greece ! :lol:

And that's Takayanagi's *private* army...

I have found in 1500, Japan's population was around 8 millions people... So... 1.000.000 is fairly a lot :lol:

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Post by Agent_Wax » Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:27 pm

Some things to note:

1). 'Southerners' is a generic term used to refer to Europeans during the period. It does not refer to people from Kyushu.

2). 'Mouri' is a Japanese surname. I don't know what connection with China it has, but the kanji in Chinese describe the Maori people of the Pacific Islands.

3). Honda Masanobu biography:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Masanobu
At the time of the story he should be a close advisor of Tokugawa Ieyasu.

4). '100 man' does not necessarily mean 1 million. It's just a generic phrase in Chinese and Japanese symbolizing 'a large number'.

5). Errm, Fugu, isn't 'Akabane' simply 'Red Feather'? And 'Akabane Httou' is 'Head of the Red Feathers'?

6). Biography of Emperor Go-Yozei:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go-Yozei_Emperor

6). 'Natsume' and 'Ryugan' are both fruits. Natsume are jujubes (aka Chinese dates), used for treating sore throats. Chinese Longans (literally 'dragon's eyes') is a sweet, juicy, favourite fruit of mine, related to lychees and rambutans. They are spherical, about the size of an eyeball. The white flesh covers a single black stone, so you can see where it got its name. Both fruits are used in Chinese medicine to 'cool the body' to counter excessive 'heatiness', which may result in sore throats, dehydration, and coughs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longan
I noticed the pun when I first started reading TT, but I didn't know it was intentional...


Fugu wrote:
The other dude (Shoujyou I think, posing as Ono Jiro Emon) said that he had "departed from this world" over 10 years ago. Maybe not really dead but departed from the world of the living. Sounds like dead to me though. Could just be more metaphorical talk though.
It could also be a way of saying that he left the material world to live life as a Buddhist ascetic. But then he drinks so much booze (ie. ethanol, which is sometimes used to preserve dead organic tissue), so who knows? :lol:
"Swallow your food whole, fool! Do you not know that mastication makes you go blind?"

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Post by FuguTabetai » Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:42 am

Agent_Wax wrote:Some things to note:

1). 'Southerners' is a generic term used to refer to Europeans during the period. It does not refer to people from Kyushu.
I didn't make that clear. Thanks.
Agent_Wax wrote: 2). 'Mouri' is a Japanese surname. I don't know what connection with China it has, but the kanji in Chinese describe the Maori people of the Pacific Islands.
I also have no idea.
Agent_Wax wrote: 3). Honda Masanobu biography:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Masanobu
At the time of the story he should be a close advisor of Tokugawa Ieyasu.
Thanks, that is useful.
Agent_Wax wrote: 4). '100 man' does not necessarily mean 1 million. It's just a generic phrase in Chinese and Japanese symbolizing 'a large number'.
I think you are right.
Agent_Wax wrote: 5). Errm, Fugu, isn't 'Akabane' simply 'Red Feather'? And 'Akabane Httou' is 'Head of the Red Feathers'?
You are right. I even wrote the Kanji for that correctly. I wonder why that didn't even occurr to me?
Agent_Wax wrote: 6). Biography of Emperor Go-Yozei:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go-Yozei_Emperor

6). 'Natsume' and 'Ryugan' are both fruits. Natsume are jujubes (aka Chinese dates), used for treating sore throats. Chinese Longans (literally 'dragon's eyes') is a sweet, juicy, favourite fruit of mine, related to lychees and rambutans. They are spherical, about the size of an eyeball. The white flesh covers a single black stone, so you can see where it got its name. Both fruits are used in Chinese medicine to 'cool the body' to counter excessive 'heatiness', which may result in sore throats, dehydration, and coughs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jujube
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longan
I noticed the pun when I first started reading TT, but I didn't know it was intentional...


Fugu wrote:
The other dude (Shoujyou I think, posing as Ono Jiro Emon) said that he had "departed from this world" over 10 years ago. Maybe not really dead but departed from the world of the living. Sounds like dead to me though. Could just be more metaphorical talk though.
It could also be a way of saying that he left the material world to live life as a Buddhist ascetic. But then he drinks so much booze (ie. ethanol, which is sometimes used to preserve dead organic tissue), so who knows? :lol:

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Post by Gigei » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:10 pm

Erm why does the text say

I want to see her ...
Just see her one more time ...
Natusme

Is that Natusme = Natsume? So Souhaku wants to see Aya or he is just saying her name because she was the one who sent him the message? I don't get it.[/code]

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Post by EliteF22 » Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:08 pm

The see her again part is part of the spell that Natsume put on the crab. Its the girls father I take it.

Souhaku says Natsume because he realizes that the spell was her doing.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:02 am


"Swallow your food whole, fool! Do you not know that mastication makes you go blind?"

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Post by ghost99 » Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:45 pm

Man this storyline is getting confusing.

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