Chapter 45

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

Moderator: FuguTabetai

Post Reply
Lyer
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:51 pm

Chapter 45

Post by Lyer »

...wow I really wasn't expecting that, but overall I thought that this was a really good chapter. Was it me, or did maya look really funky this chapter?
hitori
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:30 pm
Location: Toudou Gakuen

Book 7 down!

Post by hitori »

I was withholding my comments on the fight between Shin and Mitsuomi that started in chap 44.

In the chap 44 thread, the general feeling was that of a disappointment, but I feel that to do justice to this segment, you need to read this finale along with the previous chapter.

Well, try reading the chap 44 and 45 together.
I think the seemingly slow ending of 44 was a setup for 45's events.
I love this manga... :lol:

Thanks again, Fugu.

BTW, I figured out the member level after Senpai.
It is, if read word by word, "The one born earlier than you", right? ^_^;;
Didn't want to give it away...
User avatar
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:45 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Re: Book 7 down!

Post by FuguTabetai »

hitori wrote:I was withholding my comments on the fight between Shin and Mitsuomi that started in chap 44.

In the chap 44 thread, the general feeling was that of a disappointment, but I feel that to do justice to this segment, you need to read this finale along with the previous chapter.

Well, try reading the chap 44 and 45 together.
I think the seemingly slow ending of 44 was a setup for 45's events.
I love this manga... :lol:

Thanks again, Fugu.
I think 45 is a nice end to the fight as well - very unexpected. A good ending really... But makes me wonder why Maya holds so much animosity against Mitsuomi - she really needs to look at Shin's actions too... But, I guess people can be selectively blind...
hitori wrote: BTW, I figured out the member level after Senpai.
It is, if read word by word, "The one born earlier than you", right? ^_^;;
Didn't want to give it away...
Doushi -- it is something like "comrade" or "equal member of the group"...

fugu
Shin
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:07 pm

Post by Shin »

The best chapter this far..
It make me cry..
Image
Dead is not the end...
Is just the beginnig..
hitori
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 256
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:30 pm
Location: Toudou Gakuen

Re: Book 7 down!

Post by hitori »

FuguTabetai wrote: Doushi -- it is something like "comrade" or "equal member of the group"...
fugu
Doushi?

What about this?
http://mangatranslation.com/cgi-bin/php ... sensei.png
I just thought to try typing it and it worked.
So I assumed it was the hidden level...
Darn. ^^;;;
User avatar
Agent_Wax
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:24 am

Post by Agent_Wax »

Shin wrote:
The best chapter this far..
It make me cry..
I totally concur. Except for the crying part. I came close, though not as close as when I read Vol 7 of Gantz.

Agent Wax
standa-man
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 9:49 pm

Post by standa-man »

man... Oh Great always manages to pull out that extra twist. Here I thought I knew what was gonna happen after reading the last chapter but nope I was wrong. It was a great setup...

and it looks like the discussion in another thread about who's strongest might be resolved since it seems that no reiki dragon eye shin beat up everyone in this chap.
MDVega
Yuurei
Yuurei
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2003 6:44 am

Re: Book 7 down!

Post by MDVega »

FuguTabetai wrote: I think 45 is a nice end to the fight as well - very unexpected. A good ending really... But makes me wonder why Maya holds so much animosity against Mitsuomi - she really needs to look at Shin's actions too... But, I guess people can be selectively blind...

fugu
I've been wondering this myself. After all, Kuzunoha killed him, and it looked like Shin practically forced that needle in himself. I doubt Mitsuomi was going to just kill him if the fight had went on normally.
standa-man wrote: and it looks like the discussion in another thread about who's strongest might be resolved since it seems that no reiki dragon eye shin beat up everyone in this chap.
Maybe. Don't forget that Shin had to 'cheat' and use Kuzu as a decoy to get that attack off. That was pretty cheap, and I think Mitsuomi would have won if that didn't happen. And of course, Bunchishi wasn't fighting, he was gently trying to hold Shin back, otherwise he would have destroyed him! Tawara forever!!!!!

Speaking of which, one volume ago, Tawara got Shin to give up the katana during their fight, and said something about not being able to use the Dragon Eye without that sword. But in this volume, Shin is using the Eye all the time. What's the deal with that?
zombi3d
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:08 am

Post by zombi3d »

wellord actually works to supress his power
thats what was said somewhere
he can control it with the sword, without the sword he goes berserk
User avatar
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:45 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Re: Book 7 down!

Post by FuguTabetai »

MDVega wrote:Speaking of which, one volume ago, Tawara got Shin to give up the katana during their fight, and said something about not being able to use the Dragon Eye without that sword. But in this volume, Shin is using the Eye all the time. What's the deal with that?
What you have to remember is that many different people in the series have given their interpretations of how Shin's Dragon's Eye works: Tawara, Fu Chi'en, Takayanagi Dougen, and even Shin himself.

Of course, each of those people are just giving their interpretations. Oh! Great keeps things deliciously unclear.

fugu
blackkenshi
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:17 am
Location: Hayward but now I moved to Hercules

Post by blackkenshi »

I got a question. One when and what chapter did Shin rip off his eye. And was that supposed to help him any in controlling that Dragon Eye power of his.
Zhou
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:41 pm

Re: Book 7 down!

Post by Zhou »

MDVega wrote:Maybe. Don't forget that Shin had to 'cheat' and use Kuzu as a decoy to get that attack off. That was pretty cheap, and I think Mitsuomi would have won if that didn't happen.
I agree. Mitsuomi should be considered the winner, since Shin cheated.

Actually, that scene kind of reminded me of the cheap move Shishio used against Kenshin on Rurouni Kenshin. When the fight was seemingly over and his lover Yumi was holding him in her arms, Shishio noticed that Kenshin let his guard down. Then, he seized the oportunity to attack him, piercing Yumi's chest with his sword in the process.

However, unlike Shin, Shishio was so irredeemably evil that he didn't even regret what he did.
SynthTrance
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:14 pm

Post by SynthTrance »

Agent Wax wrote: I totally concur. Except for the crying part. I came close, though not as close as when I read Vol 7 of Gantz.
a bit off topic but where did u read/get vol 7 of Gantz?? I'm only on vol 1. ch.9...

SynthTrance
standa-man
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 9:49 pm

Re: Book 7 down!

Post by standa-man »

Zhou wrote: I agree. Mitsuomi should be considered the winner, since Shin cheated.
In the end though they both really lost.

And to blackkenshi, Shin took off his by the end ch 44 when they took the group picture. I suppose you could read some deeper meaning into the significance of the eyepatch, but nothing was mentioned explicitly about it in the manga. You could just as easily say, he took it off simply because his eye healed. He started wearing it after losing to Bunshichi.
blackkenshi
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:17 am
Location: Hayward but now I moved to Hercules

Post by blackkenshi »

Ok got a question that might be off the topic but then again is related to what happens in chapter 45. When did Mitsuomi and Maya become boyfriend girlfriend cus Maya said the minute Mitsoumi killed Shin was the day she broke up with him or sumthin
standa-man
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 9:49 pm

Post by standa-man »

blackkenshi wrote:Ok got a question that might be off the topic but then again is related to what happens in chapter 45. When did Mitsuomi and Maya become boyfriend girlfriend cus Maya said the minute Mitsoumi killed Shin was the day she broke up with him or sumthin
It was never officially announced or anything like that (no generic high school confessions here), but I think the relationship's been developing throughout the whole past arc. To me it's in Ch 38 when Mitsuomi's challenging Maya to join the Jyuukenbu that their relationship becomes pretty clear.
User avatar
Agent_Wax
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:24 am

Post by Agent_Wax »

MDVega wrote:
I've been wondering this myself. After all, Kuzunoha killed him, and it looked like Shin practically forced that needle in himself. I doubt Mitsuomi was going to just kill him if the fight had went on normally.
Shin killed himself. It was probably out of guilt for what he did to Kuzonoha, but the fact is he ultimately decided to die with her. Nobody forced him. And Mitsuomi had himself went nuts during the match. Remember that the spectators wanted to stop the fight for fear someone would get killed. If Kuzunoha had not stepped in, it is likely that he may have killed Shin eventually. I think that what Maya ultimately could not forgive is not that Mitsuomi directly, physically 'killed' Shin, but that his throwing down of the gauntlet, and subsequently his ruthlessness in the fight, drove Shin to his desperation and finally, his end.

Which brings me to this general question: What is it about some women that they can't seem to be happy unless they're miserable?


Apologise beforehand for this deviation.

SynthTrance wrote:
a bit off topic but where did u read/get vol 7 of Gantz?? I'm only on vol 1. ch.9...
I bought them. I bought vol 1 on a whim, and the very next day went back to the shop and picked up Vols. 2-5. Had some trouble finding 6 & 7, but my collection is currently up to date. Yes, it's that good.

Shameless plug :wink: : If you like great characterization, brilliant action sequences, and beautiful art, read GANTZ!

But I digress.


Standaman wrote:
And to blackkenshi, Shin took off his by the end ch 44 when they took the group picture. I suppose you could read some deeper meaning into the significance of the eyepatch, but nothing was mentioned explicitly about it in the manga. You could just as easily say, he took it off simply because his eye healed. He started wearing it after losing to Bunshichi.
Hmm. I always thought he started wearing it to look cool and perhaps to allow others to think that he is weak, giving them a sense of false security and confidence. The extent of his injuries at Tawara's hands were never made clear, but if they healed, they must have affected only the skin and tissue around the eye, and not the eyeball itself. The eyeball itself has little healing power. Extensive damage to it means you lose it. In that respect, you can conclude that Shin was very vain about his looks...

And in another light, the eyepatch allowed Shin to claim that he had a blindspot when he injured Mitsuomi. Without it, the story would have progressed differently...

Agent Wax
SynthTrance
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:14 pm

Post by SynthTrance »

Agent Wax: ah ic. I'm guessing it's in jap rite cus since ur collection is up to date with those in Japan?
Agent Wax wrote: Which brings me to this general question: What is it about some women that they can't seem to be happy unless they're miserable?
hmm I'm not too good at answerin these types of q's but I'll try :) well what I think is, for Maya's case neways, that she wants to find someone to blame for Shin's death. Even though it was obvious tht Shin wanted to die, I don't think she was able to accept this. She still feels bad about her brother's death and she mentions that she wants to settle it with mitsuomi. I guess Maya feels bad if she's happy about Shin's death....
I guess this applies in general to some women too??
Agent Wax wrote: And in another light, the eyepatch allowed Shin to claim that he had a blindspot when he injured Mitsuomi. Without it, the story would have progressed differently...
hmm I always though the eyepatch was to restrain Shin from usin his dragon eye? Cus in 1 of the chs. Maya sees that Shin saw Mitsuomi wit his good eye (?) but he blamed it on the dragon eye afterwards. To me, it seems like the patch is to discourage Shin from usin his eye but if he wanted to I'm sure the eyepatch would be of no use
User avatar
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:45 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Post by FuguTabetai »

SynthTrance wrote: hmm I always though the eyepatch was to restrain Shin from usin his dragon eye? Cus in 1 of the chs. Maya sees that Shin saw Mitsuomi wit his good eye (?) but he blamed it on the dragon eye afterwards. To me, it seems like the patch is to discourage Shin from usin his eye but if he wanted to I'm sure the eyepatch would be of no use
Shin was wearing an eye patch because Tawara screwed up his eye.
I don't know that it ever got better - notice in chapter 45 when he gets the "eye flash" thing, only one eye is visible. He might have just taken the patch off.

Maya accuses Shin of knowing Mitsuomi was there - not because he was wearing the eye patch and couldn't see out of that eye, but because even though he could not see out of that eye, he can see the future. He should have at least known that was Mitsuomi, and furthermore, known what would happen in the overall scheme. She says as much. Maybe that didn't come through in my translation? (It was there though, and fairly clear.)

fugu
currypuff
Yuurei
Yuurei
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2003 1:55 am

Post by currypuff »

FuguTabetai wrote:
SynthTrance wrote: hmm I always though the eyepatch was to restrain Shin from usin his dragon eye? Cus in 1 of the chs. Maya sees that Shin saw Mitsuomi wit his good eye (?) but he blamed it on the dragon eye afterwards. To me, it seems like the patch is to discourage Shin from usin his eye but if he wanted to I'm sure the eyepatch would be of no use
Shin was wearing an eye patch because Tawara screwed up his eye.
I don't know that it ever got better - notice in chapter 45 when he gets the "eye flash" thing, only one eye is visible. He might have just taken the patch off.

Maya accuses Shin of knowing Mitsuomi was there - not because he was wearing the eye patch and couldn't see out of that eye, but because even though he could not see out of that eye, he can see the future. He should have at least known that was Mitsuomi, and furthermore, known what would happen in the overall scheme. She says as much. Maybe that didn't come through in my translation? (It was there though, and fairly clear.)

fugu
i somewhat picked that up i think.. about maya saying shin could see the future and known about mitsuomi and stuff. think it was the part shin was talking about the rain drops, about knowing the rain drops but dont know what it all adds up to
quoted from ch43:

Maya said:
you... you can use the "dragon's eye". must have already known about what was going to happen yesterday. and if you knew... why... you must have known the horrible results that would happen... why!!
see, it came through in your translation :D

Shin's eventual reply:
It's easy to just hear the sound of the rain. but to understand the meaning of each and every drop, i just cant do it
guess that answers maya's question clearly
standa-man
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 9:49 pm

Post by standa-man »

I think Shin's saying he lapsed into the Dragon's Eye was just a lie or cover up. He couldn't very well admit to everyone that he attacked Mitsuomi because he didn't want him to steal his sister from him.

From what I understood, Shin heard Maya call him, he turned back to normal, he saw Mitsuomi while in normal mode, Maya saw that he saw him in normal mode, Maya then called out to Mitsuomi (the action she regrets), as a result Shin got mad/jealous after Maya called out Mitsuomi's name and let himself revert back to Dragon Eye mode, then he struck Mitsuomi with the super power strike.
User avatar
Agent_Wax
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:24 am

Post by Agent_Wax »

Standa-man wrote:
I think Shin's saying he lapsed into the Dragon's Eye was just a lie or cover up. He couldn't very well admit to everyone that he attacked Mitsuomi because he didn't want him to steal his sister from him.
That was the point I was trying to make. If Shin had admitted the truth, would their friendship had survived? Hmm...

Agent Wax
blackkenshi
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2003 3:17 am
Location: Hayward but now I moved to Hercules

Post by blackkenshi »

Agent_Wax wrote:
That was the point I was trying to make. If Shin had admitted the truth, would their friendship had survived? Hmm...

Agent Wax
Probably not. If he admitted the truth it wouldn't have changed a thing
Rain_Cassidy
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:17 pm

Post by Rain_Cassidy »

I think that what Maya ultimately could not forgive is not that Mitsuomi directly, physically 'killed' Shin, but that his throwing down of the gauntlet, and subsequently his ruthlessness in the fight, drove Shin to his desperation and finally, his end.
I think what Maya cannot forgive is simply Mits' decision to become the demon in order to fight future demons.

From the outset, Shin wanted to be killed by Mits. He was very selfish about it too, planning to take Mits along with him, so that no one can have his sister save the memories of him in her heart.

What "drove Shin to his desperation," actually, was a moment of mercy on Mits' part. Letting down his guard allowed Shin a chance to retaliate, and in that moment, Shin's Eye took over. Basically, Shin was ready to leap into the abyss, but upon looking into it, he flinched. That lapse allowed the Eye to manifest. That's why in the end, they both "lost".

As for why Shin wanted to die with Kuzun... he certainly didn't love her, and with his selfishness, I refuse to believe that he'd kill himself out of guilt for her. Rather, her words affected him at a moment when he was emotionally vulnerable. He was weeping at his own failure and weakness, and found a kindred soul in another person who lost her life to fate.
Which brings me to this general question: What is it about some women that they can't seem to be happy unless they're miserable?
It's the seed for drama in life. You must remember, happiness and despair are both spices of life. Oh, Heathcliff broke my soul... (not a real person)

What is Gantz? Is it a manga currently in American bookstores? How come I've never seen it? Which company publishes it? What's it about (genre)?
And in another light, the eyepatch allowed Shin to claim that he had a blindspot when he injured Mitsuomi. Without it, the story would have progressed differently...
No, everyone knew he was lying. Shin didn't even bother trying to sound sincere; you can see the sneer on his face. It's like when a bully pulls your hair then says "Oh I'm so sorry." :twisted:
SynthTrance
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:14 pm

Post by SynthTrance »

FuguTabetai wrote: Shin was wearing an eye patch because Tawara screwed up his eye.
hmm.... I must've missed it.... could some1 possibly tell me the vol and pg #?

Gantz is about a group of ppl who supposedly died but are still alive. They believe they're in a tv show but I'm not really sure as it's only been translated up to vol.1 ch.9
Im not sure if it's in american bookstores but project-omanga translates.
Curse-ed
Yuurei
Yuurei
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:51 pm

Post by Curse-ed »

I don't think Shin is that selfish, because when mana said that maya should help mitsuomi not take the path that shin took, shin left it alone and accept his lost by killing himself, if his that selfish he probably would've went over to mitsuomi kill fist befor killing himself, and if he's that selfish he probably would've just used reiki and get it over with since he's that desperate, but he fought mitsuomi with his own power, since he wants to kill him with his own hands, not with the dragon eye, but he failed anyway, probably why he felt so miserable and killed himself.
User avatar
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:45 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Post by FuguTabetai »

SynthTrance wrote:
FuguTabetai wrote: Shin was wearing an eye patch because Tawara screwed up his eye.
hmm.... I must've missed it.... could some1 possibly tell me the vol and pg #?
Try volume 6, page 11 on or so.

fugu
Rain_Cassidy
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:17 pm

Post by Rain_Cassidy »

I don't think Shin is that selfish, because when mana said that maya should help mitsuomi not take the path that shin took, shin left it alone
He felt some guilt. But the guilt merely kept him from deciding to kill anyone else, rather than being the primary motivator for him to kill himself.
he fought mitsuomi with his own power, since he wants to kill him with his own hands, not with the dragon eye, but he failed anyway, probably why he felt so miserable and killed himself.
He wanted to die, to proclaim victory over his curse. He accepted his fate of being killed by Mits. But in the end his weakness allowed the Eye to return, and put his entire "noble" plan to shambles.

In a way, he died a better death than if Mits killed him...
His fate was to die going to Hell dragged by ghosts, because he wasn't going to his death with a pure heart (wanting to kill Mits and all). That's why he changed his mind in the last instant ("I don't wanna die!"). But when he died with Mana, it's like she became his angelic guide, and he left the world without the burden of his curse, as a pure spirit, absolved. :cry:

Of course, that doesn't explain why he appeared as a damned soul in Aya's dream. :?
User avatar
Agent_Wax
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 585
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:24 am

Post by Agent_Wax »

No, everyone knew he was lying. Shin didn't even bother trying to sound sincere; you can see the sneer on his face. It's like when a bully pulls your hair then says "Oh I'm so sorry."
I guess this is an interpretational issue. Personally, I tend to be able to forgive people their faults (eg. selfishness) if they apologise straight up. Making excuses is an extension of insincerity and possible treacherousness. I felt that Shin acted out of a moment's weakness when he attacked Mitsuomi. As such, their relationship may conceivably be salvageable had he not lied.

But looking back again, at how he pointed the katana at Mitsuomi at the Natsume Residence, it seems that Shin was really no longer interested in keeping their friendship, and regarded Mitsuomi now as an enemy to be eliminated. As such, he had no intention, even at the hospital, to reconcile with Mitsuomi.


Of course, that doesn't explain why he appeared as a damned soul in Aya's dream.
I don't think Aya was dreaming. She was using the Eye. And Shin didn't look damned. He just looked dead.

What is Gantz? Is it a manga currently in American bookstores? How come I've never seen it? Which company publishes it? What's it about (genre)?
Gantz is sci fi. But not really. It's kinda "The Twilight Zone meets MIB to the power of n" . Suppose you take a bunch of normal, everyday people from various walks of life who just died. Put them all in a room and give them a mission. How would they react? How would a bunch of street thugs act when given awesome weapons? What will a demure grandmother do when forced to fight against aliens? How will a monk react when told that he has to assassinate Buddha?

You can't really tell much from the first volume, but it takes off from the 2nd. The characters are fascinating and complex, even thouse that only last a few chapters. The lead, Kei Kurono, is an absolute prick. But I guess his selfishness kind of makes him interesting. The body count in this book is amazingly high, and not even the central characters are safe (spoiler!). Oku throws in twists when you least expect it. He makes you think the character will last, then BAM! he/she dies. It can get frustrating if you're too attached to conventional storytelling techniques.

Agent Wax[/i]
Post Reply