Ch. 92

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Post by EliteF22 » Tue Mar 21, 2006 5:25 pm

Who says he needs Souichirou to resurrect him in the first place? We still haven't seen whether that limb regenerating ability is also one of his dragon's powers. Also, what about Reiki. I'm taking from all the hints that ghost Aya is Reiki, we can't assume that Reiki is good. We've seen in the past what it did to Shin and also what Dougen said about it. Reiki could be suckering in Aya to use her for its own hidden agenda.

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Post by protocol7 » Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:54 pm

well it might be that he doesn't even need nagi to raise him he may be able to raise himself.

I personally was lead to believe that only reiki could kill himand also maya said after she defeated tets that they would need it to beat him.

It seems to me that sho haku just allowed himself to be beaten as a safety measure so that he wouldn't be attacked by reiki.

i think this saga will explain the limits of sho haku's powers and also just how disturbed oh great's mind is(yes i'm still seeing fat bastard :twisted: )

well all i need now to read the translation

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Post by Kyu1982 » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:22 am

I just remind people that that fat man is "Tokugawa Ieyasu"
I think Oh. Great did too much with him.

I heard he was fat, but I don't think he was giant fat ball.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Mar 22, 2006 12:27 am

Laggardly wrote:Rather than taking over Nagi through the ritual or having another convulted plan laid out for completion after his supposed death, it would be terribly amusing if there are no side effects of the ritual Nagi is about to undergo.

Instead, Shohaku might just be expecting his son to resurrect him with his new Kago powers.

The possiblity that Shohaku might not have any contingency plan to bring him back to life other than counting on Nagi's possible affection for him is to simplistic not to be funny.

Hmm that would be interesting, though it would seem Inue is his insurance. I don't see how Nagi is going to use his power though unless you can take the gate off a dead body unless of course Nagi has had Souhaku's gate this whole time and just didn't know how to use it. Talk about an insurance policy against dying. Have a son who can bring back the dead and a loyal lacky who can force anyone(almost) to do anything they say. Nagi is going to be one heck of a badass if he also has Souhaku's power.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:57 am

I heard he was fat, but I don't think he was giant fat ball.
Giant fat ball? That's an understatement, right? That guy's so fat he has his own gravity field. If he went swimming in the ocean the government would add another island to the maps. When he jumped into the ocean, the Japanese coined a new word: 'tsunami'.

But where does it say that's Ieyasu?

From Wikipedia's entry on Tokugawa Ieyasu:
Ieyasu has been known for being heartless. He also personally ordered his men to execute Hideyori's infant son, Kunimatsu. He ordered the execution of every soldier that could be found who defended Osaka castle. Tens of thousands of samurai are said to have been killed, their heads stuck on planks of wood which lined the road from Kyoto all the way to Fushimi. His lack of compassion was not especially uncommon for his time and can be attributed to his upbringing amidst wars, assassinations, and continuous violence. A quote from Ieyasu as portrayed in the film "Rikyu" can roughly sum up his outlook on life: "Life means that I can live to see tomorrow."

In his personal relationships, Ieyasu manifested the same extremes of temperament he showed towards strangers. He had nineteen wives and concubines, by whom he had seventeen children. He is said to have cared for his children and grandchildren, establishing three of them, Yorinobu, Yoshinao, and Yorifusa as the regional lords of Kii, Owari, and Mito provinces, respectively. At the same time, he could be ruthless when crossed: he ordered the executions of his first wife and his eldest son.

His amorous relations with women were no obstacle to dalliances with boys, in the style of the Japanese shudo tradition of pederasty. In this he was no different from the majority of the Tokugawa lords: out of ten who reached adulthood, eight were known to have had male affairs. (Crompton, p.439) One of his beloveds was Ii Manchiyo, a scion of a powerful clan who were among his chief supporters. Manchiyo was not alone to be honored thus, as one of the criticisms raised against him was that he spent too much time sporting with boys. (Leupp, p.54) Indeed, the eighteenth century Osakan scholar Nakai Shuan described Ieyasu as "a sage who could not control his sex life." (Leupp, p.145)
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Post by FuguTabetai » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:34 am

If the fat man is Ieyasu, it would be nice to know that before I head into the translation. Saying that Ieyasu is a character is an important statement; there is lots of history behind that character already. I'm certainly not qualified to interpret what that would mean to an average Japanese person.

Mr. Prophet, thanks for the HTTP mirror. I have trouble with BitTorrent currently.

I went to start my translation this evening (an after-work type thing) and man, these scans need to be leveled. Well, I don't have the time, so I'm not going to do it, but if anyone is interested please contact me. Or fire up GMAO on your cleaned up scans (as long as you don't change the image size) and make a scanlation of your own for personal use.

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Post by protocol7 » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:41 am

well i sorta guessed any anime that has an overlord it's usually that fat guy.
here he is just more of the king of fat blobs but whatever.

someone said that the young girl had the symbol of the sun goddess thats interesting.It did say that she was a member of the toguwa house.She also helped kabane.

besides this chapter wonder what will happen in the next chapter with nagi's response.

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Post by Kyu1982 » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:09 am

Agent_Wax wrote:
I heard he was fat, but I don't think he was giant fat ball.
Giant fat ball? That's an understatement, right? That guy's so fat he has his own gravity field. If he went swimming in the ocean the government would add another island to the maps. When he jumped into the ocean, the Japanese coined a new word: 'tsunami'.

But where does it say that's Ieyasu?
There is name. second small box.

Thanks for info.
Well, even Takeda Shingen (spelling) killed his own son and exiled his own father when he took over Kai, so Ieyasu wasn't evil.
He needed to finish Toyotomi clan for the future, so he killed everyone. He passed away 2 or 3 years after he took down Osaka castle. And, most Toyotomi soldiers are ex-Tokugawa soldiers. After the battle at Sekigahara(possible spelling error) b/w Tokugawa and Toyotomi, Tokugawa was officially the strongest clan in the Japan. Ieyasu decided to lower the size of his army. He went downsizing, and every Samurai who got fired, head to the Osaka Castle to join Toyotomi army.

Anyway, Ieyasu is also a man who never forget things. If someone help /aid him, he always remember and pay them back, and If someone harms him in anyway, he will pay them back in negative way.

Enough history lesson.
So, already one out of 4 red feather assasin squid is out.
I think they will fail. I just want to see what happens to Aya after getting caught by So haku. kukuku...........

I am sure 94.9999% of Oh Great fan want some hard core SM on main character.

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Post by Ricco » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:26 am

If the current Souhaku is the same as the old one then he's most likely not dead. After being killed Tetsuhito's body returned to his normal age(much like vampires do in some tales), yet Souhaku who is even older then that is still looking young after loosing his head. This means that either he reincarnates into a new body when he feels death is near, or he still has some ki left in his supposedly dead body which keeps it young and if he has ki left he can resurrect himself.
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Post by Kyu1982 » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:21 pm

Ricco wrote:If the current Souhaku is the same as the old one then he's most likely not dead. After being killed Tetsuhito's body returned to his normal age(much like vampires do in some tales), yet Souhaku who is even older then that is still looking young after loosing his head. This means that either he reincarnates into a new body when he feels death is near, or he still has some ki left in his supposedly dead body which keeps it young and if he has ki left he can resurrect himself.
Well, I know Sohaku is not Tenzen from Basilisk. (for the none ninja fan, this is the dude who can regenerate even he loses his head.)

You got a good point, but hmm if you look back at volume 14. Oh Great added past arc between Makiko and Sohaku. Sohaku was young when they were together.

My wild guess is taht Sohaku is not the same case as Tetsuhito.
Sohaku's age is the same as his look. mid/late 30s or early 40s. ( for me, he looks mid 20, some times, he looks younger than Mitsuomi; dude must had too much stress from having bad heart. and age too fast).

Sohaku's secrect might be body switching or born with the same memory from past over and over again. Even at this point, we don't know his true age. During the scene at Honnogi temple with Nobunaga, So haku talked like he had seen Nobunaga ever since Nobunaga was very young. I think Sohaku goes a way back. possibly first 12 fouding family time. honestly, I don't think it is easy to keep the same hair style over several hundreds years.

With current past arc, most red feathers are working together and they are more power up than present ones, but still Sohaku has upper hand.

btw, did current Sohaku lose sense of SM?
seems like he used to enjoy it. maybe, he still has it in his hidden chamber in Kagome temple(Sohaku's hide out place in the present time).

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:55 pm

Kyu1982 wrote: btw, did current Sohaku lose sense of SM?
seems like he used to enjoy it. maybe, he still has it in his hidden chamber in Kagome temple(Sohaku's hide out place in the present time).

well the present chapters have not really focused on him at all. In the pages he was present there have been sm/bondage type themes. like when he was feeding people to nagi to eat the gates. if you ask me, getting stuffed in a coffin tied up with a horse bit in your mouth qualifys as sm theme :P

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Post by protocol7 » Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:50 pm

well personally many people will be surprised but i don't want past aya to get caught by sho haku.i can already picture some serious pain and suffering.If she wasn't nine id be all for it but not in her current state.

sho haku is a perv and i think he is twisted but i can seriously say that he ain't dead com on SHO HAKU DEAD yea right!

That does not even count as a joke. I say he has a bag of tricks and like i've been saying from the beginning he aint dead.But i can tell you who is kabane.
I down 3 to go.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:04 am

Kyu1982 wrote:


Sohaku's secrect might be body switching or born with the same memory from past over and over again. Even at this point, we don't know his true age. During the scene at Honnogi temple with Nobunaga, So haku talked like he had seen Nobunaga ever since Nobunaga was very young. I think Sohaku goes a way back. possibly first 12 fouding family time. honestly, I don't think it is easy to keep the same hair style over several hundreds years.
That's what shouki alrady said, it's the same guy since the beginning, that could be why he's so up on this reuniting the blood of the 12 families thing. He's been around since then and doesn't like 11 other families having power since it seems they're the only obstacle to him and have been opposing him for a long time.
It seems interesting now how different his and Dougen's plans for the red feathers are, he wants to take away all their power and Dougen is trying to get them to release their power. Guess now we're starting to see why.

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Post by Kyu1982 » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:06 am

protocol7 wrote:well personally many people will be surprised but i don't want past aya to get caught by sho haku.i can already picture some serious pain and suffering.If she wasn't nine id be all for it but not in her current state.

sho haku is a perv and i think he is twisted but i can seriously say that he ain't dead com on SHO HAKU DEAD yea right!

That does not even count as a joke. I say he has a bag of tricks and like i've been saying from the beginning he aint dead.But i can tell you who is kabane.
I down 3 to go.
yes, I know
Even Aya with soem SM actions does not show up next chapter or two, I am sure So Haku will remove her magic/whatever it is and turn her into 9 years old state.

I wonder what he will do Ichiyou. kukuku.. Yaoi or Shota... cannot wait.
mmm. Their blood line survived, so I think they both lived.

And, yes I know. true evil never dies. he will be back.
But, I really don't want him to take Nagi's body, and I don't think it will happen. BTW, do you think a girl with Amaterasu power (Dragon gate with this power) will show up in the future to aid Nagi and Sohaku if Neo Nagi joins force with Sohaku to exterminate Mitsuomi and his gang and rest of 12 main family and some other minor families?

Well, after Nagi's power up, I think Mitsuomi will be a walking sandbag if Nagi meets him again. And one more, another assumtion, Mitsuomi's power comes from dragon kii that Shinn put it in Mitsuomi's body. I think Nagi can remove it, and Maya believe that it is only way to save Mitsuomi and stop the upcoming 100 year war.
If nagi remove it, it will be the worst thing ever happened to Mitsuomi. possibliy even worse than death.
Mitsuomi without super power against Nagi. I really want to see that. After all the things Mitsuomi did.
1. Kick Nagi's ass from day one
2. Chopped off Nagi's father's head
3. most of all, Maya still likes Mitsuomi.
Unless Nagi enters nirvana or some kind of divine state, Mitsuomi will be dead or nearly dead.

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Post by Laggardly » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:10 am

Shohaku is in Ieyasu's room in the SM scene though isn't he? That would suggest that SM might be Ieyasu's style instead of a habit of Shohaku's.

Even without his three minute boost, Mitsumi should at least be able to fight on Bunshichi's level, whose name I assume I ruined. If so, especially if his three minute limit is removed with the boost, Mitsumi should be able to stand up to a True Warrior Nagi reasonably well, at least for a little while.

It's interesting that it was Honda at the end who was involved in Kabane's death. Even Shohaku's functionary lackeys are dangerous, it seems.

As for whether the group defeats Shohaku, I think they will except they won't manage to kill him. His defeat would give reason for him to have a role within the Takayanagi Founding Families in the present despite being openly at war with them in the past. He might be defeated to the point where he is about to be killed and then is given the chance to surrender. Shohaku might accept if he thought he was in serious danger of being killed by the Reiki. Even if Dougen doesn't like or approve of Shohaku in the flashback with Shin, it's obviously there are some rules of conduct being observed. Dougen could take Shin back without a fight. I doubt the present Takayanagi could march into Shohaku's layer and just grab a prisoner as easily.

Secondly, wasn't the swordsman they killed and whose body they took, a direct servant in actuality of the Tokugawa family starting around this time? As Ieyasu seems firmly in Shohaku's hands, I can't see a Takayanagi loyalist becoming the aid of a Shohaku backed Tokugawa. It stands to reason then that Shohaku's influence would need to be removed. Having a Takayanagi feather as a guard inside the newly controlled Tokugawa family would work to complete the removal of Shohaku's power of Ieyasu. The need of that assurance might be the reason that someone as important as a Founding Family feather is put on lifetime guard duty.

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:03 am

Laggardly wrote:It's interesting that it was Honda at the end who was involved in Kabane's death. Even Shohaku's functionary lackeys are dangerous, it seems.
It's not Honda. Honda's the old geezer.

This guy is actually Yagyu Shinjirou Yoshikatsu, a relatively unknown son of the legendary Tokugawa retainer Yagyu Muneyoshi and the uncle of the equally legendary Yagyu Jubei (yes, the one of the "Ninja Scroll" fame!)
Secondly, wasn't the swordsman they killed and whose body they took, a direct servant in actuality of the Tokugawa family starting around this time? As Ieyasu seems firmly in Shohaku's hands, I can't see a Takayanagi loyalist becoming the aid of a Shohaku backed Tokugawa.
I don't think that they were actually planning to go as far as Ieyasu, since Souhaku would obviously see through Shoujou's disguise.

But it was enough to fool mid-level underlings like Honda, and that was, I guess, enough for their purpose of getting into Osaka Castle (at least, I think this is their plan).

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Post by IwEL » Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:26 am

As requested , i leveled the scans
http://rapidshare.de/files/16208583/ten ... d.rar.html
that's what i i could get out of these raws (haha never used a value such as 70 for leveling before and i even needed to burn the black parts a lot)
i also redrew p1 , when i'm done with work (in apr. 6 hrs) and none of my buddies wants to play some cs , i'll probably do some more redrawing.
pls post any complaints/suggestions on the scans by then so that i can correct any faults by friday morning gmt (apr. 20hrs from now), cuz i'll be afk the whole weekend.

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Post by Kyu1982 » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:09 am

MrProphet wrote:
Laggardly wrote:It's interesting that it was Honda at the end who was involved in Kabane's death. Even Shohaku's functionary lackeys are dangerous, it seems.
It's not Honda. Honda's the old geezer.

This guy is actually Yagyu Shinjirou Yoshikatsu, a relatively unknown son of the legendary Tokugawa retainer Yagyu Muneyoshi and the uncle of the equally legendary Yagyu Jubei (yes, the one of the "Ninja Scroll" fame!)
Secondly, wasn't the swordsman they killed and whose body they took, a direct servant in actuality of the Tokugawa family starting around this time? As Ieyasu seems firmly in Shohaku's hands, I can't see a Takayanagi loyalist becoming the aid of a Shohaku backed Tokugawa.
I don't think that they were actually planning to go as far as Ieyasu, since Souhaku would obviously see through Shoujou's disguise.

But it was enough to fool mid-level underlings like Honda, and that was, I guess, enough for their purpose of getting into Osaka Castle (at least, I think this is their plan).
Shoujou will be the second man to die.
I think he has no special ability besides stealing faces.
That is one hell of skill to have but, once he gets caught.
He will be finished faster than baldy.

BTW, what are White Feathers doing?
I am sure. they don't want to attack directly to Osaka to get Sohaku who is right next to Ieyasu.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:28 am

IwEL wrote:As requested , i leveled the scans
http://rapidshare.de/files/16208583/ten ... d.rar.html
that's what i i could get out of these raws (haha never used a value such as 70 for leveling before and i even needed to burn the black parts a lot)
i also redrew p1 , when i'm done with work (in apr. 6 hrs) and none of my buddies wants to play some cs , i'll probably do some more redrawing.
pls post any complaints/suggestions on the scans by then so that i can correct any faults by friday morning gmt (apr. 20hrs from now), cuz i'll be afk the whole weekend.
IwEL, thanks a lot. I'll work off of the levelled scans. I wouldn't worry about redrawing stuff, since I'm just putting out text translations.

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Post by shouki » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:59 am

Kyu1982 wrote:Shoujou will be the second man to die.
I think he has no special ability besides stealing faces.
That is one hell of skill to have but, once he gets caught.
He will be finished faster than baldy.
If he dies then the person he's taken over will be officially dead, which will mean the story will directly contradict known history. So I wouldn't count on him dying...

In a normal battle, Shoujou would do very well I think - he's "borrowed" the skill of the best swordsman of the time.

I think Souhaku will at least be driven from Osaka Castle. Maybe it'll look like he's died but he actually got away. I guess he then goes underground for a centuary or two...

BTW, what are White Feathers doing?
I am sure. they don't want to attack directly to Osaka to get Sohaku who is right next to Ieyasu.
Maybe they'll attack the other points of the defence... (remember Aya's display of Osaka castle and surrounding points from last chapter)

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:00 am

Kyu1982 wrote:Shoujou will be the second man to die.
I think he has no special ability besides stealing faces.
That is one hell of skill to have but, once he gets caught.
He will be finished faster than baldy.
Well, not exactly.

He said that in addition to the face, he also gets all the knowledge and abilities of the "original host", meaning that he is as good of a swordmaster as Ono Tadaaki.

He might be able to put on a good fight. But then again, maybe not against the Yagyu clan member.

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Post by shouki » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:09 am

MrProphet wrote:This guy is actually Yagyu Shinjirou Yoshikatsu, a relatively unknown son of the legendary Tokugawa retainer Yagyu Muneyoshi and the uncle of the equally legendary Yagyu Jubei (yes, the one of the "Ninja Scroll" fame!)
Jubei also appears in Jubei-chan, one of the Shura no Toki arcs (very cool)... and other places, some mentioned below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yagyu_Jubei_Mitsuyoshi

However, not much is known about the real Jubei...

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Post by Ricco » Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:16 am

shouki wrote:
Kyu1982 wrote:Shoujou will be the second man to die.
I think he has no special ability besides stealing faces.
That is one hell of skill to have but, once he gets caught.
He will be finished faster than baldy.
If he dies then the person he's taken over will be officially dead, which will mean the story will directly contradict known history. So I wouldn't count on him dying...

In a normal battle, Shoujou would do very well I think - he's "borrowed" the skill of the best swordsman of the time.

I think Souhaku will at least be driven from Osaka Castle. Maybe it'll look like he's died but he actually got away. I guess he then goes underground for a centuary or two...
Actually we know a certain someone who can bring the dead back to life, so Shoujou might still die following that line of thought(history is not changed this way). But the fact that all the famillies still exist in the futur proves that Souhaku's gonna get his ass kicked. I don't see him keeping around the familly of those who opposed him so they get in his way in the futur if he wins. Then again he might keep them and make them subordonates to more easely complet his "perfect warrior" plan later on...
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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:13 pm

the familys of the future do not apear to be as powerful as the past. It could be the particular people die but their brothers and sisters are the one that carrys on the line.

For all we know this past aya has other brothers and sisters, she has to have parents and they have not shown up in this past arc. Its not that far fetched to not believe that she also does not have brothers and sisters as well.

aya never showed up in the first past arc, tho we know she had to be born by then.

I dont think Sohaku wants to outright kill all the familys. if he is that powerful he has no need. His only problem is reiki. Besides from what he did to nagi and his mom, it apears he is more interested in harnessing the families powers then he is destroying them

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Post by kk1 » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:16 pm

Sleepy Weasel wrote:
aya never showed up in the first past arc, tho we know she had to be born by then.
Yes she does. When Shin is talking to his dead parents Aya comes in the room to tell him Maya left early with Mitsuomi and asks him who he was talking to since she "heard" the voices.

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:05 pm

ok ok. so she did once :P

but still~ out of all the chapters inthe past arc. it's still posible I think >_<

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Post by kk1 » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:56 pm

shouki wrote:
Kyu1982 wrote:Shoujou will be the second man to die.
I think he has no special ability besides stealing faces.
That is one hell of skill to have but, once he gets caught.
He will be finished faster than baldy.
If he dies then the person he's taken over will be officially dead, which will mean the story will directly contradict known history. So I wouldn't count on him dying...

In a normal battle, Shoujou would do very well I think - he's "borrowed" the skill of the best swordsman of the time.

I think Souhaku will at least be driven from Osaka Castle. Maybe it'll look like he's died but he actually got away. I guess he then goes underground for a centuary or two...

BTW, what are White Feathers doing?
I am sure. they don't want to attack directly to Osaka to get Sohaku who is right next to Ieyasu.
Maybe they'll attack the other points of the defence... (remember Aya's display of Osaka castle and surrounding points from last chapter)
The white feathers are used in regular battle, this is a covert operation to take care of Souhaku, the white feathers aren't neccessary. This past arc is obviously to show how the Nagi and Natsume defeat Souhaku so we know how they can do it in the present, since obviously the Natsume family kept Reiki until the present and the Takayangi family has stayed in power. It also seems to me the other families couldn't be too overly concerned about Souhaku if they sent two 9 year olds to stop him, maybe Souhaku isn't the huge badass we all think he is. They really weren't that concerned in the present either, I mean wouldn't they have killed Souhaku a long time ago if they were that scraed of him?

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Post by EliteF22 » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:00 pm

Ah, but remember, these are two crazy powerful 9 year olds.

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Post by shouki » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:38 pm

It's possible that Aya and Ichiyou's parents are dead, of course.

Seems that Nagi and Natsume are the top 2 families (when it comes to missions) though. Dragon Eye and Dragon Fist are both very powerful, even when used by 9 year olds.

Anyway, we should be getting some pretty interesting fights coming up.

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Post by HappyStealer » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:55 pm

well you got nagi, who has "Infinite ki" and natsume, which uses "infinite ki." if thats not what you call powerful, then I dont know what is. But its interesting to see how these 9 year olds are so good at using their powers. Its amazing really, tho we haven't seen ichiyou in a fight yet really but he seems extremely powerful. Plus with the whole white feather thingy, why would you send a white feather to take care of a red feather? It would make more sense that someone with "abnormal powers" take care of someone who has abnormal powers.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:27 pm

I think Souhaku will at least be driven from Osaka Castle. Maybe it'll look like he's died but he actually got away. I guess he then goes underground for a centuary or two...
Err, he does not really own Osaka Castle. That belongs to Toyotomi. Souhaku kills Oda to allow Toyotomi to build Osaka-jo. He then turns into Tenkai, resurfacing on Tokugawa's side, in Edo. In 1593 (where the current story takes place), Toyotomi summoned Tokugawa to Osaka-jo as an advisor, and he could conceivably have taken Souhaku along. But how did Souhaku influence Toyotomi to build the castle in the first place? And if he had a position at Toyotomi's side (which I doubt, because Toyotomi would no doubt also know him as the traitor Akechi), why bother to become Tenkai? After Toyotomi Hideyoshi's death (around 1598, I think), Tokugawa made plans for a coup which culminated in the Sekigahara battle. However, the Tokugawa family doesn't manage to claim Osaka-jo until 1615, more than 20 years away. This seems like a tedious, time-consuming, and convoluted way to not go anywhere.
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Post by MrProphet » Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:50 am

He-he. Not exactly.

AFAIR, according to history, the castle didn't really matter to Ieyasu, because Hideyoshi's son, Hideyori, wasn't much of an opponent (he was 5 years old when Hideyoshi died), so Ieyasu had nothing to fear from Toyotomi family controlling Osaka. In fact, Ieyasu laid a siege of Osaka Castle in 1599, a year after Hideyoshi died, and forced Hideyori to sign a truce and marry Ieyasu's granddaughter.

So, although Hideyori still controlled Osaka Castle after Sekigahara, he did it in name alone. When Ieyasu finally decided to capture the castle for good in 1614, it wasn't because he couldn't do it before, but only because he didn't care to. He had his Shogunate to establish.

Perhaps the reason why the Tokugawa shoguns (and Kago, by extension) did not control Osakajo after Hideyoshi-kun's death will be revealed in the coming chapters.

Is Oh! great going for historical revisionism? Perhaps the battle between Nagi/Natsume and Kago is the reason why Tokugawa and Tenkai didn't get to control Osakajo directly until much later. 8)
In 1593 (where the current story takes place)
How did you get that date?

The story takes place after Nobunaga's death (1582), but before Toyotomi's death (1598), that's a given. Additionally, the Emperor talks about Toyotomi invading Korea, which started in 1592.

Other clues we have is the construction of the castle. The inner castle was constructed in 1585, but the outer walls, moats and bastions weren't completed untill 1598. Considering how the Emperor kept talking about how formadable Osaka Castle is, the date has to be closer to the completion, so has to be around 1595-1598.

So, unless there were other clues which I missed, the Ancient Arc story takes place somewhere between 1592 and 1598.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 1:45 am

MrProphet wrote:
How did you get that date?

The story takes place after Nobunaga's death (1582), but before Toyotomi's death (1598), that's a given. Additionally, the Emperor talks about Toyotomi invading Korea, which started in 1592.

Other clues we have is the construction of the castle. The inner castle was constructed in 1585, but the outer walls, moats and bastions weren't completed untill 1598. Considering how the Emperor kept talking about how formadable Osaka Castle is, the date has to be closer to the completion, so has to be around 1595-1598.

So, unless there were other clues which I missed, the Ancient Arc story takes place somewhere between 1592 and 1598.
I surmised it during the discussion about the last chapter, it's just a guess but since Toyotomi attacked Korea twice I'm just assuming it was the first time. Since it mentions he's away on business with Korea and Ieyasu wasn't summoned until 1593, plus Hideyori isn't mentioned yet and he was born in 1593. Though you're right it could be any year between 92 and 98, though I would say at least 93(since Ieyasu is there) and probably not 98, probably not 96 since most of the Japanese army had left Korea by then and Hideyoshi was negotiating with the Chinese. I figured it was a time of active fighting either early 93 or 97 seemed most likely, I just went with the earlier one.

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Post by MrProphet » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:05 am

Ah, I see. Well, it's as good an educated guess as any. 8)

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Post by Agent_Wax » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:36 am

How did you get that date?
Ono Tadaaki joined the Tokugawa clan in 1593. So while technically still incomplete, Toyotomi has had 10 years to build and fortify Osaka-jo.
AFAIR, according to history, the castle didn't really matter to Ieyasu, because Hideyoshi's son, Hideyori, wasn't much of an opponent (he was 5 years old when Hideyoshi died), so Ieyasu had nothing to fear from Toyotomi family controlling Osaka. In fact, Ieyasu laid a siege of Osaka Castle in 1599, a year after Hideyoshi died, and forced Hideyori to sign a truce and marry Ieyasu's granddaughter.


Okay, fair enough, but it still doesn't explain why Souhaku would go through all that trouble to be kept out of Osaka-jo for so long. Unless... [slaps forehead]. We didn't notice that the girl with Souhaku is Senhime, the granddaughter of Ieyasu. Souhaku went over to Tokugawa's side because he wanted the powerful Senhime. She has the Amaterasu gate because she is descended from Amaterasu? So sensei is saying that the Tokugawa line are the rightful rulers of Japan? But the dates clash. Senhime was 19 in 1615, making her birth year 1596. She shouldn't even be alive yet! And if she was married off when she was 7, that would make it 1603, after Sekigahara, not 1599. :?

Kyu1982, are you Japanese? If so, then you've probably read this chapter better than anyone else here except Shouki. My Japanese is rudimentary. The box you're referring to says 'Descendent of Heaven: Tokugawa Ieyasu', correct? But does it directly indicate that the tub of lard is Ieyasu? Just checking. Thanks.
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Post by MrProphet » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:53 am

Well, Senhime's date of birth is technically unknown, so it's possible to have little numbers game here, but still, the possibilities are limited.

If we take for granted that she married Hideyori after the first siege of Osaka in 1599, and that she was seven at the time, then she had to have been born somewhere around 1592-1594, depending on the time of marriage.

In any case, the girl in chapter does not fit. If the Emperor didn't say that Hideyoshi is still alive, we could have just surmised that the story is taking place after Sekigahara and the girl is indeed Senhime.

But with the facts we have, the girl is not Ieyasu's granddaughter.

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Post by shouki » Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:39 am

Maybe Souhaku had something to do with keeping Senhime's visibly young or something... (ie later when she marries she might look young but is actually quite a bit older. Oh Great could be doing all sorts of things...)

btw, she seems to have a "mitama" in her chest. I wouldn't be sure if she was born with Amaterasu's Gate.

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Post by Kyu1982 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:53 am

MrProphet wrote: In any case, the girl in chapter does not fit. If the Emperor didn't say that Hideyoshi is still alive, we could have just surmised that the story is taking place after Sekigahara and the girl is indeed Senhime.

But with the facts we have, the girl is not Ieyasu's granddaughter.
No, I think Hideyoshi is still up and running.

Honda Sadonokami Masanobu said in ch 91. "The castle's master, Hideyoshi-kou is not here now. He has left for Hakata and Nagoya castles on business regarding Korea ... I have been left in charge in his absence"
I know basic japanese history especially during this time.
But I don't know why Tokugawa Ieyasu is at Osaka castle.
I thought his home was at Edo Castle, wasn't it?

And, I believed that Tenkai worked for Tokugawa even after the Toyotomi clan was crushed. I think IF Sohaku did not live after 12 family's heavy attack, Shyoujyou probably took Sohaku's identity as Tenkai and work for Tokugawa. I think this might help how Takayanagi family still exists. It does not matter how powerful 12 families are. They cannot fight the entire nation. Unless they killed Sohaku or pushed him away from Tokugawa, Takayanagi family and other 12 families should be wiped out by Tokugawa clan.

But, we cannot forget that Sohaku needs other red feather families' bloodline in order to resurrect the true demon or the first dude with all the goody powers. So, If Sohaku wins this battle, Sohaku probably control Takayanagi last several hundreds years from shadow. anyway, from my perspective, as long as Shyoujyou lives, I think we can assume that Sohaku lost the war, but if not, Sohaku won the battle.

The most important thing,
Based on Fugu's trans, Sohaku's zombie technique does not last forever.
The Senhime's dog died more than once. Which means if Maya is saved by Sohaku or Nagi with Sohaku's zombie power, in the end she will be just used by Sohaku or Neo Nagi ( my assumtion is that he has all the power with tons of dark evil crippy mind. with all the power, he might also become perverted) From my prediction, the best future scene should be Maya and Mitsuomi die together just like Shinn and Kuzunoha Mana( we didnot talk about her for some time now).

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Post by bubblegum2000 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:43 am

Kyu1982 wrote: The most important thing,
Based on Fugu's trans, Sohaku's zombie technique does not last forever.
The Senhime's dog died more than once. Which means if Maya is saved by Sohaku or Nagi with Sohaku's zombie power, in the end she will be just used by Sohaku or Neo Nagi ( my assumtion is that he has all the power with tons of dark evil crippy mind. with all the power, he might also become perverted) From my prediction, the best future scene should be Maya and Mitsuomi die together just like Shinn and Kuzunoha Mana( we didnot talk about her for some time now).
I don't see why Maya should be used by Sohaku or Neo Nagi if one of them saves her. I mean, it seems normal that the zombie technique doesn't last forever. It doesn't necesseraly imply that her "second" life will be shortened! It's a technique used to resurrect people, not to make them immortal.

Maya and Mitsuomi dying together wouldn't be so surprising (since they will never be able to kill each other) but it would mean that history repeats itself and well, IMO, it would be their ultimate failure. It means they would be unable to escape their fate. Quite sad...
But it's true it would be a terrific romantic end for them :oops:

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Post by MrProphet » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:01 pm

No, I think Hideyoshi is still up and running.
Yes, that's what I've said.

IF there was no mention of Hideyoshi still living, we could have reasonably construed that the plot is taking place after Sekigahara. Then, based on that, we could have surmised that the girl is Senhime.

But as the things stand, this would not fit and I am highly surprised that Oh! great is using Senhime as a character. But, then again, this is called poetic license.
Author: fugu Language: English: [Trans. Note] I didn't translate his job title correctly. It is more something like "The person whose role it is to be informed about the castle" or something like that. A guide of some sort, runs general things around the place maybe.
Fugu, a caretaker of the castle is called "castellan" (or chatelain, a more specific French term).
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Post by kk1 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:06 pm

MrProphet wrote:
No, I think Hideyoshi is still up and running.
Yes, that's what I've said.

IF there was no mention of Hideyoshi still living, we could have reasonably construed that the plot is taking place after Sekigahara. Then, based on that, we could have surmised that the girl is Senhime.

But as the things stand, this would not fit.
Author: fugu Language: English: [Trans. Note] I didn't translate his job title correctly. It is more something like "The person whose role it is to be informed about the castle" or something like that. A guide of some sort, runs general things around the place maybe.
Fugu, a caretaker of the castle is called "castellan" (or chatelain, a more specific French term).
Well Oh! Great must have been bad at history because that's who it is. :? Maybe he's just expecting his audience not to be that weel versed in history either.

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Post by MrProphet » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:15 pm

kk1 wrote:Well Oh! Great must have been bad at history because that's who it is. :? Maybe he's just expecting his audience not to be that weel versed in history either.
Unless the girl is 4-5 years old (maximum, even if this is Hideyoshi's last year of life), this definitely looks like a FUBAR. 8)

Perhaps we are missing something. Or maybe he's going to correct it for the tankoubon. Which would still clash with the fact that Ono Tadaaki joined Tokugawa before the girl could have been born...

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Post by FuguTabetai » Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:45 pm

MrProphet wrote:
kk1 wrote:Well Oh! Great must have been bad at history because that's who it is. :? Maybe he's just expecting his audience not to be that weel versed in history either.
Unless the girl is 4-5 years old (maximum, even if this is Hideyoshi's last year of life), this definitely looks like a FUBAR. 8)

Perhaps we are missing something. Or maybe he's going to correct it for the tankoubon. Which would still clash with the fact that Ono Tadaaki joined Tokugawa before the girl could have been born...
Three things. First, thanks for the correction on castellan, MrProphet. I'll throw that in.

Second, on my page 130, what do you guys make of the picture of the old lady and nasty dog? My impression is that Oh! Great is showing us what the dog really looks like, after some number of repeated resurrections (each one takes you down one CON point, natch) - what I don't get is who is the woman? I would think Senhime, making her older than we would think, and therefor not the Senhim from history, but that doesn't make sense given the story about how she was imprisoned since her birth, etc. I don't see that happeneing without Souhaku around. So maybe it is someone else? But I can't think of who it would be.

Third, maybe thanks to MrProphet, kk1, and Agent_Wax. They all have always had consistently great information and are real contributors around here that make things easier for me when I translate.

Shouki is in the same category, but he doesn't have the insane post count those guys did (actually maxxed out my rank system) so I'm thinking about what to do in his (?) case.

Also, I really need to fix that Bushi pic. Forgot to include space for the drop-shadow.

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Post by MrProphet » Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:11 pm

FuguTabetai wrote:Second, on my page 130, what do you guys make of the picture of the old lady and nasty dog? My impression is that Oh! Great is showing us what the dog really looks like, after some number of repeated resurrections (each one takes you down one CON point, natch)
Yes, exactly, this is the same thing that happened to Tetsuhito (and perhaps to Fu Chi'en). When they die after being ressurected, they revert to the decayed, decomposing state.

I am not sure if there is any "ressurection penalty" being infolved, but it could be correct because of the conservation of matter law (what goes in will come out minus the energy applied). Although, fantasy mangas aren't all that big on the laws of psysics. 8)

Another possibility is that Souhaku is only creating some kind of an elaborate illusion of live and health, while the body still decomposes "underneath", only slower than usual.

I don't really know, but yeah, we've already observed the same thing with Souhaku's magic before.
what I don't get is who is the woman? I would think Senhime, making her older than we would think, and therefor not the Senhim from history, but that doesn't make sense given the story about how she was imprisoned since her birth, etc. I don't see that happeneing without Souhaku around. So maybe it is someone else? But I can't think of who it would be.
Souhaku addresses her as Senhime. Unless this is some kind of a set-up on Souhaku's part, or Oh! great is messing with us, or he is just applying creative license, then I think that we should think of her as Senhime.

I do wonder though: how could a mangaka so well-versed in history make such a slip-up? There are numerous inconsistencies with the situation as I see it now, so it can't really be attributed to carelessness. The only possible explanation is that this will somehow be explained later on to fit the real picture.
Also, I really need to fix that Bushi pic. Forgot to include space for the drop-shadow.
Thanks for "upgrade", by the way.

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Post by kk1 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:59 pm

Thanks Fugu always glad to make any small contribution I can since you and others do so much in providing me with a great translation.

As to your question, your page 130. , oh the page with Aya at the top? That's Tetsuhito from fight 89, your page 46, when Madoka ran past his body after Maya killed him, we got to see what he really looked like. That's where we got the idea that Tetsuhito was really old (remeber the 'antique' gun from when he was "born", well at the time it was used it was the latest in firearms). Seeing as we know Souhaku's power now and from you're translation it appears Souhaku has been keeping Tetsuhito alive now for a long time and when he rivives someone or something they're restored to youth. It appears from your latest pages translated as long as there is the tiniest ki in someone he can restore all their ki, essentially returning them to the age when they used to posses that much ki, their youth.(or perhaps their age when they died?)

Quite an interesting take on life and death, that finally answers the question about Fu Chi'en. He was dead but there was enough ki left in his body for Souhaku to revive him, kinda inconsistent that he still looked like a corpse though. Although one explanation is he can control how much ki he returns to the body, so in Tets and the dogs case he put in enough to not only keep them alive but also return them to youth but in Fu's case he just put in enough to make him "alive". Maybe that's also what he's doing with Senhime's dog...Dreamcircle...?(maybe you should leave that as it's phonetic Japanese translation Fugu, Yumemaru I'm guessing?), putting in just enough to revive the dog for a short time so that Senhime has to keep coming back and he can gain her trust, or Senhime is just the worst pet owner ever. :D

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Post by protocol7 » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:12 am

well just read the latest translation and just as suspected sho haku has always been sho haku.

thats why he said after he was unable to get makito to take shin's power.that he had failed again in volume 4.

well like it was mentioned before he lords over death zombie fuu.(don't tell me that shin left him alive after what happened to maya) and tets.
he truely is the puppet master.

now the REAL question is wheather or not he is still alive.

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Post by kk1 » Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:27 pm

FuguTabetai wrote:
Third, maybe thanks to MrProphet, kk1, and Agent_Wax. They all have always had consistently great information and are real contributors around here that make things easier for me when I translate.

Shouki is in the same category, but he doesn't have the insane post count those guys did (actually maxxed out my rank system) so I'm thinking about what to do in his (?) case.

Also, I really need to fix that Bushi pic. Forgot to include space for the drop-shadow.
Well I don't know why you used a non-japanese term for yourself but since you did you could create "sihing" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sihing

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Post by Agent_Wax » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:12 am

Fugu, I'm quite certain that the 'maru' kanji is not meant to be translated as 'circle' or 'sphere'. In Japan, pets are often given the honorific '-maru' (or sometimes '-chan'). A black dog could be called 'Kuromaru'. As such, the zombie dog's name should be just 'Dream'. '-maru' is also applied to the name of ships.

Oh, and thanks for the promotion. :)

The story of Ishikawa Goemon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishikawa_Goemon
I don't see how anyone with eyes could mistake Aya for a man ... :wink:

If Senhime was being 'held hostage' at Osaka-jo, that would be after she had been married to Toyotomi in 1603, which doesn't agree with the other goings-on we've seen. But it's an odd choice of words, as it was Ieyasu who forced the marriage to ensure Toyotomi's loyalty.

I don't think sensei made a mistake in the use of Senhime. As someone mentioned, his historical references are usually pretty good. He's probably just taking poetic license to make the story more interesting by working in Senhime's Dragon gate. This would explain why he neglected to put actual dates in the story - something which could easily have been done - because it wouldn't logically work that way.
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Post by Agent_Wax » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:36 am

Kyu1982 wrote:
But I don't know why Tokugawa Ieyasu is at Osaka castle.
I thought his home was at Edo Castle, wasn't it?
Yes, it was. But before Sekigahara, Toyotomi was the de facto ruler of most of Japan. Ieyasu himself was subjugate to Toyotomi. Ieyasu became an advisor to Toyotomi, and could in likelihood have been summoned to Osaka-jo occasionally.

From Wikipedia:
In 1592, Hideyoshi invaded Korea as a prelude to his plan to attack China. The Tokugawa samurai never took part in this campaign. Early in 1593, Ieyasu was summoned to Hideyoshi's court in Nagoya, as a military advisor. He stayed there, off and on for the next five years. Despite his frequent absences, Ieyasu's sons, loyal retainers and vassals were able to control and improve Edo and the other new Tokugawa lands.

In 1593, Hideyoshi fathered a son and heir, Toyotomi Hideyori. In 1598, with his health clearly failing, Hideyoshi called a meeting that would determine the Council of five regents who would be responsible for ruling on behalf of his son after his death. The five that were chosen as regents (tairo) for Hideyori were Maeda Toshiie, Mori Terumoto, Ukita Hideie, Uesugi Kagekatsu, and Tokugawa Ieyasu. Ieyasu was the most powerful of the five.
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Post by shouki » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:11 am

Agent_Wax wrote:Fugu, I'm quite certain that the 'maru' kanji is not meant to be translated as 'circle' or 'sphere'. In Japan, pets are often given the honorific '-maru' (or sometimes '-chan'). A black dog could be called 'Kuromaru'. As such, the zombie dog's name should be just 'Dream'. '-maru' is also applied to the name of ships.
I was going to post about this myself, but you beat me to it. However, some additional...

"maru" is somewhat like the "ko" suffix for girls. However, it is rarely used in modern times (except for boats). I might be remembering some of this wrong but it used to be the case that boys from noble or semi-noble familes would have an "childhood" name, often ending with -maru, and then change it to something else on becoming an "adult". The kanji might be different though...

Anyway, I think Yumemaru should be left as is - after all, why translate the dog's name but none of the other characters? I think the -maru part suggests that Yumemaru is male though.

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