Fight 93

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Post by MrProphet » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:45 pm

shouki wrote:With regards to Souhaku's power and any possible Kago family power, I don't remember there being any direct indication of the Kago family having inherited special powers. But maybe I'm forgetting something. If they do, it could be that Souhaku has a "mutant" strain. Otherwise, he's probably like Senhime - a very rare (random?) innate ability out of the blue. If Souichirou doesn't have the same power naturally, then it's probably an uninheritable power.
While I argee that his rejuvenation trick is just a magical art he somehow learned or acquired on his own, you are overlooking another detail.

Kago family is the 6th Red Feather family (after Natsume, Nagi, Shoujou, Kabane and Hotaru), thus they (or Souhaku personally, at least) must possess some sort of an 8th Dragon Gate.

Senhime is either a descendant of the True Warrior, or perhaps a blood relative of the Takayanagi Clan. Which could actually be the same thing, since all the Flying Phoenix families are descended from the True Warrior in some way. She could also be completely unrelated to the 12 families and have the Amaterasu Gate for whatever random reason, but I think Oh! Great would try to tie her into the big picture somewhere.

And if Reiki is blocking Kago's power, then it's yet another proof that this rejuvenation trick is NOT a Dragon Gate, since we've seen a Dragon Gate used in the presence of activated Reiki before (Maya vs. Tetsuhito being the latest example). Nothing was blocked then, so if Souhaku's power was in fact blocked by the sword, it must be something other than a Dragon Gate.

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Post by EliteF22 » Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:28 pm

You forgot that Reiki can indeed suppress dragon gate powers. Shin used it to do just that to prevent himself from killing Bunshichi. Now, whether or not its enough to suppress Souhaku's power enough that he can no longer do his rejuvenation still isn't clear. I still haven't figured out how they were planning on killing Souhaku and prevent him from regenerating. Unless of course they don't know what his ability is. In the present no one seemed to know what his ability was either, so there is a possibility that the same goes for the past.

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Post by kk1 » Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:54 pm

EliteF22 wrote:You forgot that Reiki can indeed suppress dragon gate powers. Shin used it to do just that to prevent himself from killing Bunshichi. Now, whether or not its enough to suppress Souhaku's power enough that he can no longer do his rejuvenation still isn't clear. I still haven't figured out how they were planning on killing Souhaku and prevent him from regenerating. Unless of course they don't know what his ability is. In the present no one seemed to know what his ability was either, so there is a possibility that the same goes for the past.
I think they know in the past, and though he keeps a low profile in the future I'm sure they(at least the older heads of the families) know there too(I'm sure Nagi's mom told Maya since she was so desperate to get it to them). What I don't get is why so many of the present people don't know anything. Obviously Nagi's mom purposely kept things from him and Aya was very young when her parents died(Maya on the other hand seems to know alot) but why is Masataka clueless? You'd think they'd asked or were told about some of this stuff. Also I don't think you can really say Reiki "surpresses" a power, Fu Chi'en said Shin wasn't able to surpress his power without Reiki. It seems Reiki gives the user more focus and thus control over their power. As we saw with Aya helping Maya against Tetsuhito(and in this chapter with the fake Aya) it allows ki to be channeled through it.

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Post by MrProphet » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:21 am

EliteF22 wrote:You forgot that Reiki can indeed suppress dragon gate powers. Shin used it to do just that to prevent himself from killing Bunshichi. Now, whether or not its enough to suppress Souhaku's power enough that he can no longer do his rejuvenation still isn't clear. I still haven't figured out how they were planning on killing Souhaku and prevent him from regenerating. Unless of course they don't know what his ability is. In the present no one seemed to know what his ability was either, so there is a possibility that the same goes for the past.
This is actually a big misconception. I was thinking it too, but people on this board corrected me (I think it was last year).

Reiki did not suppress Shin's Dragon Eye. On the contrary, Reiki supressed Shin's madness and allowed him to control Dragon Eye much-much better.

So, in effect, the sword didn't turn off his power, but in fact amplified it.

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Post by kk1 » Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:33 am

MrProphet wrote:
This is actually a big misconception. I was thinking it too, but people on this board corrected me (I think it was last year).

Reiki did not suppress Shin's Dragon Eye. On the contrary, Reiki supressed Shin's madness and allowed him to control Dragon Eye much-much better.

So, in effect, the sword didn't turn off his power, but in fact amplified it.
:shock: Wow, didn't I just say that exact same thing in the post above you? You trin' to pad your post count Mr P? :wink:

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Post by kk1 » Tue May 02, 2006 11:40 pm

You're not going to use "magatama" in your translation Fugu? I'm sure most readers are familiar enough with them (especially from Ikkitousen recently) for you to use it, besides the fact that they are connected to the Amaterasu story.

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Post by shouki » Wed May 03, 2006 1:34 pm

Translation comment on "de sura" (page 7 / 161).

I'm 95% sure that it means something like "even for" or "even in xyz's case".

ie, the whole 12 Families ganged up on Susa to take him out. Yet, even such a bad-ass guy couldn't kill little miss Amaterasu.

I think the "wa" in this case is not to indicate subject but to give a contrast - ie Susa's actions against her were different to others.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Wed May 03, 2006 6:21 pm

kk1 wrote:You're not going to use "magatama" in your translation Fugu? I'm sure most readers are familiar enough with them (especially from Ikkitousen recently) for you to use it, besides the fact that they are connected to the Amaterasu story.
I have no fucking clue what Magatama is.

Like I paid attention to Ikkitousen. Shit.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Wed May 03, 2006 6:23 pm

shouki wrote:Translation comment on "de sura" (page 7 / 161).

I'm 95% sure that it means something like "even for" or "even in xyz's case".

ie, the whole 12 Families ganged up on Susa to take him out. Yet, even such a bad-ass guy couldn't kill little miss Amaterasu.

I think the "wa" in this case is not to indicate subject but to give a contrast - ie Susa's actions against her were different to others.
Thanks, I'll look back over that. I also get the feeling that is how it is, but I'm not positive. I like to put in notes when I'm not sure.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Wed May 03, 2006 10:55 pm

Fugu, I'll give the semi-chinese text a shot when I'm free. I don't have much free time either, now that I've started working. But nobody should hold their breath that I can tease any reason out of the text, all the same.

In the meantime, though: Magatama are an essential part of Japanese mythology and religion, and not just for Ikkitousen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magatama
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Post by kk1 » Thu May 04, 2006 12:14 am

FuguTabetai wrote:
kk1 wrote:You're not going to use "magatama" in your translation Fugu? I'm sure most readers are familiar enough with them (especially from Ikkitousen recently) for you to use it, besides the fact that they are connected to the Amaterasu story.
I have no fucking clue what Magatama is.

Like I paid attention to Ikkitousen. Shit.
Well I didn't mean you knew them from Ikkitousen, I figured you knew them from their, oh I don't know, you've been to Japan right? I thought they'd be common knowledge for someone who runs a mangatranslation website :oops:
Anyway the if you don't want to read the whole Wik article quick rundown on magatama is they are jade jewels and their shape(like half a yinyang)is like the shape of a human soul(as represented in Japan) they used to be worn to ward off evil spirits(well kami so maybe not necessarily evil) and they're one of the 3 imperial regalia of Japan (a sword and mirror are the other 2) and in the Amaterasu story they along with a mirror were hung on a tree and used to lure Amaterasu out of a cave she hid in because of her brother susanoo. So when Ichiyou calls her the Magatama no Miko that is what he's referring to...I'm assuming...
Last edited by kk1 on Thu May 04, 2006 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Thu May 04, 2006 3:48 am

kk1 wrote:Well I didn't mean you knew them from Ikkitousen, I figured you knew them from their, oh I don't know, you've been to Japan right? I thought they'd be common knowledge for someone who runs a mangatranslation website :oops:
Actually, I'm living and working in Japan now, have been for about 6 weeks. The stuff that continually comes up in Tenjo Tenge never comes up in daily conversation over here. Very, very strange vocabulary and lots of poetic stuff that just isn't really very useful.

Anyway, I didn't mean to get rude. Real life has put me in a real pissy mood lately, although I've come to appreciate Eamon's music.

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Thu May 04, 2006 6:43 pm

Agent_Wax wrote:In the meantime, though: Magatama are an essential part of Japanese mythology and religion, and not just for Ikkitousen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magatama
I have always wondered what those were called. I have seen them in other places as well. Games like onimusha for one

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Post by Hollowshingami » Thu May 04, 2006 11:41 pm

Yeah, they were SMT:Nocturne as well. Nice to know what's the deal with them.

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Post by kujoe » Fri May 05, 2006 5:32 pm

It's also on the anime Otogizoushi. Actually, that's where I first heard of the term itself, but the thing itself is quite a common image in anime and manga—like in Blue Seed for example.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Fri May 05, 2006 11:49 pm

Here is the translation for the poem pinned to Kabane, translated to the best I can understand it:

'Ten
Hi noborite

Ryu
Chouro ni kie
Housuu ryuu ka ni shisu
Ichiyou ochitaro-o-mete fuyukitaru-o-shirabeshi
'

'Day*
The sun rising

A dragon
Evaporating morning dew
Dying under the housuu** willow
Know winter is coming when a single leaf falls'***

Notes:
* Can also be 'sky' or 'heaven'. I went with 'day' as it makes more sense in light of the 2nd line

** Housuu is literally 'Phoenix chick' or whatever one calls a baby phoenix. This is probably a type of willow tree. The phoenix is a mythical bird which can never die, continuously being reborn from the ashes. A fitting totem for Souhaku

***The last line is different in that the kanji and hiragana are not in the same order. The Chinese and Japanese mean the same thing, though. The pun / threat here is that 'Ichiyou' means 'one leaf'

I'm working now on the Kojiki text and the song Aya sings on the boat.
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Post by Hollowshingami » Sat May 06, 2006 1:27 am

I'm just starting to wonder if Oh Great is making some of the dialogue needlessly complex.....

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Post by Agent_Wax » Sat May 06, 2006 2:02 am

Hollowshingami wrote:I'm just starting to wonder if Oh Great is making some of the dialogue needlessly complex.....
Trust me, that's how people in ancient China and Japan communicated.
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Post by Agent_Wax » Sat May 06, 2006 2:24 am

This is the song or poem Aya was singing on the boat. It was undoubtedly written in Chinese. While the Chinese reading is rather beautiful, it comes across as strange in Japanese as it doesn't have the proper rhyme and beat:

'You you youyoutoshite
Haku hou tobi

Midori kiyoku harufukakushite
Yoku koromo-o-somu

Nan kiyo hoku rai
Hito onozokara oi

Seki you nagaku okuru
Chou senno kaeruo.

Kanko - Sooboku.
'


'Fusing and disintegrating
Waves of seagulls soar

The verdancy of spring
are exquisitely coloured garments

Coming and going, North to South
Age catches up*

The evening sun sees
The fishing boats home.

The Han River - Prosperous Pastures.'**


Notes:
*This stanza means that while we are busy with our daily lives, time naturally passes us by and ages us. There may be other interpretations, but that's poetry for you.

**This is probably the title of the song or poem. Han River is a tributary of the Yangtze river:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_River_%28Hanshui%29

Edited to change one line in the poem.
Last edited by Agent_Wax on Sun May 07, 2006 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Agent_Wax » Sat May 06, 2006 3:16 am

I've given up on the Kojiki excerpt. The text presented is the Japanised version, which I have difficulty with. I'd probably have better luck with the original Chinese version than this. If anyone wants to read it, they can find the text at http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/kj/kj022.htm. The entire Kojiki, translated by Basil Hall Chamberlain, can be read online here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/shi/kj/index.htm

On another note, what's up with Shyoujyou's reaction to the pipe? The Portuguese brought tobacco to Kyushu in 1542, so he should be familiar with it by the 1590s. What was old man Wani smoking in that thing? :D
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Post by FuguTabetai » Sat May 06, 2006 4:20 am

Thanks for the translation, Agent_Wax. I'll try to add it to my translation soon. I am positive that Oh! Great likes to pull out some high literature every once in a while. It drives me nuts.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Thu May 11, 2006 8:49 pm

Does chapter 93 end on young-girl Aya rushing ke ke ke ke ke zerg Souhaku on that double page spread? There's not note about next month or anything? Seemed like an abrupt end to me.

I still have to go back and add in Agent_Wax's song translations. Thanks a lot for that. I wasn't about to try to barrel through that stuff.

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Thu May 11, 2006 9:26 pm

there is 1 more page, pm'ed it to you

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Post by kk1 » Thu May 11, 2006 11:33 pm

Can't wait for next chapter, great stuff about Souhaku and Senhime's Amaterasu gate. So was Aya looking full grown when she went after Souhaku and only revert when she entered the circle or did she revert to sneak in...? BTW Fugu I hate to nitpick your translation but you called the magatama , tamagama the last couple pages, otherwise great job as usual, you too Agent Wax.
I'm guessing Souhaku has to kill Senhime to save himself since obviously he doesn't die in the past, and since he can't die in the present because there's no one with Amaterasu's gate I really hope we get back to the present soon to see the look on Mitsuomi's face when he sees Souhaku alive.
Last edited by kk1 on Sat May 13, 2006 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Fri May 12, 2006 12:22 am

I'm guessing Souhaku has to kill Amaterasu to save himself since obviously he doesn't die in the past, and since he can't die in the present because there's no one with Amaterasu's gate
at least no one we have seen yet :P
and we dont know those 2 peoples powers are in the present that picked aya up while she was passed out comunicating to maya.

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Post by MrProphet » Fri May 12, 2006 9:11 am

They are Shoujou and Kabane, so I guess that they have the same powers as their ancestors, that is the power to assume identity and some ambigous power over the dead.

Although we don't really know if those are inherited Dragon Gate powers or just something that Ancient Arc Shoujou and Kabane knew how to do on their own.

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Post by kk1 » Fri May 12, 2006 11:20 am

They are Shoujou and Kabane, so I guess that they have the same powers as their ancestors, that is the power to assume identity and some ambigous power over the dead.

.
Kabane has those blades not a power over the dead.

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Post by MrProphet » Fri May 12, 2006 2:36 pm

The Ultra Jump Special (which came with a short story about Dougen) mentioned that Kabane's Dragon Gate has something to do with death.

And considering how the Kabane Myouun has been described as a "half-dead priest", I think the blades are just something extra.

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Post by kk1 » Sat May 13, 2006 12:25 am

The Ultra Jump Special (which came with a short story about Dougen) mentioned that Kabane's Dragon Gate has something to do with death.

And considering how the Kabane Myouun has been described as a "half-dead priest", I think the blades are just something extra.
From http://tjtg.mangatranslation.com/TJTG_s ... Trans.html
It says "Currently, what sort of role, or Dragon's Gate this family has is still a mystery. Kabane itself has to do with corpses but ... !? "

Also considering the Shyukyou Family is a branch family of the Kabane and has the extremely similar Dragon's Claw, I would think the swords are definately the family's Dragon Gate. All the "half dead" preist stuff seems like joking or speaking metaphorically to me, obviously since he was killed, he must have been alive and obviously has no power over death.

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Post by MrProphet » Sat May 13, 2006 5:56 am

Kabane itself has to do with corpses

The huge blade could somehow be an extension of his power, but the core still has to do with the fact that he died in that fire (refer to his flashback).

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Post by kk1 » Sat May 13, 2006 10:53 am

MrProphet wrote:Kabane itself has to do with corpses

The huge blade could somehow be an extension of his power, but the core still has to do with the fact that he died in that fire (refer to his flashback).



:roll: You can imagine all you want but no where can you infer from that flashback that he literally died, just that he was responsible for killing other people, again with his "sword". Also right after the flashback we see Senhime negate his "power", the sword he tries to kill her with. That's it proof positive, what else do you need?

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Post by Ricco » Sat May 13, 2006 2:32 pm

MrProphet wrote:Kabane itself has to do with corpses

The huge blade could somehow be an extension of his power, but the core still has to do with the fact that he died in that fire (refer to his flashback).
Kabane "died" in the same way Mitsuomi "killed" Shin. The special was done long ago, the dead/dying Maya plot probably needed that Souhaku had the power over the dead and not Kabane. This way she won't resurrect too easely since the Kabane are basals of the Natsume.
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Post by Asunder » Sat May 13, 2006 3:44 pm

I was going over the chapter again and I noticed those weird chanting guys causing an explosion on the rooftop. Is that Nagi that stops them with a single hand?

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Post by kk1 » Sat May 13, 2006 4:00 pm

Asunder wrote:I was going over the chapter again and I noticed those weird chanting guys causing an explosion on the rooftop. Is that Nagi that stops them with a single hand?
Yep exactly how in the present our Nagi's mother absorbed his energy. Pretty cool, hope Souichiro learns to do that eventually.

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Post by MrProphet » Sat May 13, 2006 5:40 pm

:roll: You can imagine all you want but no where can you infer from that flashback that he literally died, just that he was responsible for killing other people, again with his "sword". Also right after the flashback we see Senhime negate his "power", the sword he tries to kill her with. That's it proof positive, what else do you need?
Oh! Great wrote that "Kabane itself has to do with corpses", and unless he himself negates it by specifically describing Kabane's Dragon Gate as something else, then no amount of "proof positive" is going to change that.

Sorry, but that's a fact. Everything else is guesswork.
This way she won't resurrect too easely since the Kabane are basals of the Natsume.
Kabane are not vassals of Natsume. Kabane are vassals of Takayanagi and equal to Natsume as just another Red Feather clan.

Natsume's vassals are Enmi.

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Post by kk1 » Sat May 13, 2006 8:51 pm

MrProphet wrote:
:roll: You can imagine all you want but no where can you infer from that flashback that he literally died, just that he was responsible for killing other people, again with his "sword". Also right after the flashback we see Senhime negate his "power", the sword he tries to kill her with. That's it proof positive, what else do you need?
Oh! Great wrote that "Kabane itself has to do with corpses", and unless he himself negates it by specifically describing Kabane's Dragon Gate as something else, then no amount of "proof positive" is going to change that.

Sorry, but that's a fact. Everything else is guesswork.
Man are you dense, the Kanji for his name means CORPSE that's what that blurb in th UJ special is referring to, sheesh. Are you going to tell us Shoujyou's real power has something to do with Orangutans because that's what the kanji means and the UJ special says "Shoujyou is similar to a live version of that monkey from Chinese legends"? :roll:

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Post by MrProphet » Sun May 14, 2006 6:27 am

Man are you dense, the Kanji for his name means CORPSE that's what that blurb in th UJ special is referring to, sheesh. Are you going to tell us Shoujyou's real power has something to do with Orangutans because that's what the kanji means and the UJ special says "Shoujyou is similar to a live version of that monkey from Chinese legends"? :roll:
I would not be surprised if that were exactly so and he intended it that way. 8)

And would you please stop insulting me? You prove nothing by being discorteous except that you are rude and immature.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Sun May 14, 2006 8:19 am

I would prefer not to see the personal slandering going as well.

As far as Kabane's power, I originally thought it had to do with corpses as well, based on the UJ Special, but now I am not so sure, because Oh! Great could just have easily have been talking about the character there.

I do think that Kabane was, in some way, "killed" on the mountain, although that might be some psychological usage. Also, he seems to have some intimicay with showing people to the other side, i.e., helping spirits cross over into Hell or whatever.

In all truth though, I don't think we can make any determinations until Oh! Great makes it painfully obvious, as he will eventually do, with lots of explanation and exposition. He's probably keeping things vague now on purpose.

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Post by kk1 » Sun May 14, 2006 12:57 pm

MrProphet wrote:
Man are you dense, the Kanji for his name means CORPSE that's what that blurb in th UJ special is referring to, sheesh. Are you going to tell us Shoujyou's real power has something to do with Orangutans because that's what the kanji means and the UJ special says "Shoujyou is similar to a live version of that monkey from Chinese legends"? :roll:
I would not be surprised if that were exactly so and he intended it that way. 8)

And would you please stop insulting me? You prove nothing by being discorteous except that you are rude and immature.
You're just so frustrating when you keep arguing something that is so painfully obvious. You won't even say "well you could be right", just stuff like "that is a fact!" over and over. And it's not like this isn't the 30th time we've gone through something like this.

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Post by physic » Tue May 16, 2006 6:39 am

I think its entirely possible and likely that his power has something to do with death based on the story. Just because it has to do with death doesnt mean its reincarnation, it could be any number of things, and like Fugutabetai said, its highly likely that its kept vague on purpose, anything more is going to be personal assumptions at this point. No one can really say who is right untill there is more expostion.

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Post by kk1 » Tue May 16, 2006 8:01 am

physic wrote:I think its entirely possible and likely that his power has something to do with death based on the story. Just because it has to do with death doesnt mean its reincarnation, it could be any number of things, and like Fugutabetai said, its highly likely that its kept vague on purpose, anything more is going to be personal assumptions at this point. No one can really say who is right untill there is more expostion.

Man, is there really that much doubt because of that one mention in the UJ Special? I thought his "Blades" being his power was pretty damn obvious, especiallly after the branch family's power being so similar. No one else has a completely different secondary power unrelated to their dragon gate why would he?

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Agent_Wax
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Post by Agent_Wax » Tue May 16, 2006 7:48 pm

Man, is there really that much doubt because of that one mention in the UJ Special? I thought his "Blades" being his power was pretty damn obvious, especiallly after the branch family's power being so similar. No one else has a completely different secondary power unrelated to their dragon gate why would he?
Well, that's not true. Almost all the RFs have an unrelated 'special' power. Natsumes can control their age, Enmis can control moths, Kago(s) can do necromancy, Nagis presumably can do exorcisms. These are probably not inherited, but more likely taught and learned within their respective lines, like secret family recipes for azuki desserts or something. I admit you might be onto something with the Dragon Claw connection, but personally I always thought that blade was a physical manifestation of his 殺氣, or 'killing intention', as it's occasionally translated as. Besides, I find it strange that all the other powers are connected with body parts while Kabane's is not. As for why the Amaterasu Gate neutralised his attack, it's probably because it neutralises ALL ki-based techniques, including Natsume's Age Manipulation technique. But we shall need to wait and see.
"Swallow your food whole, fool! Do you not know that mastication makes you go blind?"

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kk1
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Post by kk1 » Tue May 16, 2006 11:54 pm

Agent_Wax wrote:BTW why are the quotes screwed up all of a sudden? :?
After upgrading to the latest PHPBB they broke. I just fixed them now because they were annoying me too.

Still haven't fixed the tamagama / magatama business and put in the song translations. I'll try to get to that in the next two weeks. Kind of busy right now.

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