Fight 95

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Fight 95

Post by IwEL » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:41 am

preview pic out at
http://www.s-manga.net/mens/uj/tenjou-w.swf
seems like the past arc is continues
(can't wait to return to the present)

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Post by kk1 » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:48 am

Well we still have to see how Souhaku gets away.

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:19 pm

Last edited by Sleepy Weasel on Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MrProphet » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:26 pm

So, this is the Siege of Osaka.

I am mighty confused now. The siege happened in 1614, which would mostly fit into the timeline and explain our reservations about Senhime's age.

But how does that reconcile with the fact that Ono Tadaaki came to Tokugawa in 1593?

Unless, Ono already served the Shogun's family when Shoujou and Kabane got to him... But that kinda doesn't fit his age. Hmm...

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Post by Agent_Wax » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:13 pm

The siege of Osaka-jo was by Ieyasu. But Ieyasu is currently in the castle... methinks it's something else.

Another preview image:
http://ultra.shueisha.co.jp/UJ115/closeup/Tenjo.gif

The 'supplement' in this issue of UJ is an alternate dust jacket:
http://ultra.shueisha.co.jp/UJ115/images/Furoku.jpg

Cover of Madoka:
http://ultra.shueisha.co.jp/UJ_images/Uj115Cov.jpg
"Swallow your food whole, fool! Do you not know that mastication makes you go blind?"

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Post by MrProphet » Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:38 pm

Maybe. But still, the timeline is confusing me.

A slightly larger Madoka cover. 8)

Image

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Post by kk1 » Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:12 am

Man Oh! Great can even make the smallest skinniest flat-chested girl in the book look sweet.

torrent is up btw at point blank

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:35 am

yup, im confused

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Post by kk1 » Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:43 am

Well that answers the time question, interesting postscript to the past arc. And, ugh, looks like Souhaku does do the soul transfer thing, in case anyone doesn't realize the "old" Souhaku is Shoujou in disguise(see the skull necklace). Well I guess this means those are his old bodies surrounding Souichiro and he is transferring into him...oh well.

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Post by shouki » Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:51 am



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Post by shouki » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:59 am

Couple of other comments...

On page 24, notice that Souhaku's right eye socket is damaged badly. Hmm. Also, Senhime is carrying Yumemaru (the dog) at this point. So must be pretty near the edge of the barrier....

Also on page 24, Ieyasu has clearly woken up from some spell and is doing some basic what's happened to me, where am I, kind of lines.

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:34 am

LOL. "Ichiyou. Nagi Ichiyou Kengo".

Ichiyou is positively James Bond-ish. 8)

http://mrprophet.com/temp/v16c95.zip

That's one confusing chapter. I had to read it thrice to get what's going on.

OK, so we have Shoujou disguised as Tenkai, directing Tokugawa troops against Osaka, which is held by Toyotomi.

Sanada Yukimura (heh, anyone saw Samurai Deeper Kyo?) leads the osakan charge against Tenkai's positions and almost gets to Ieyasu, but is stopped by Ichiyou. Ichiyou starts thinking back to when he last came to Osaka, how he saw that Souhaku died without leaving the circle and cries a bit about Aya.

After the siege is over and the castle is taken by Tokugawa, grave diggers spot Yumemaru rising from the rubble. Yumemaru is obviously Souhaku's new body.

The thing I don't understand is how Senhime's parts fits into this. She is obviously older, so this must be 1615, and it's happening at the same time as the above. But she is giving her saviour Yumemaru's dead body, while we know that Souhaku has been inhabiting it. Are there multiple dog bodies Souhaku is using? Or maybe the dog and the rubble thing is not 1615 and it's the past? But if that is true, then where is Souhaku?

A crazy thought tells me that the last bit is from the first time the Red Feathers came to Osaka. Souhaku's body died in his magical circles, he transfered his soul into the dog and returned to Senhime. Some time passes, and when the Siege of Osaka comes, Souhaku runs again, transfers out somewhere and Senhime gives the dog's dead body to the samurai.

But where did Souhaku transfer his soul? Into Senhime? I see no other candidate.

But that's a really, really, REALLY roundabout way of telling the story! 8)

Can anyone give their opinion of the timeline?

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Post by protocol7 » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:30 am

man this chapter is totally above me didn't understand shit.
seriously.

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Post by shouki » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:45 am

Given the character ages, it seems like the Red Feathers' attack was about 10 years ago. (Senhime should be 19 in this chapter. She was married at 7 - not sure if she was married or not at the time of the Red Feathers' attack).

Ichiyou tells Sanada that he was in the castle in the past (page 22), and just afterwards Ichiyou says the age of war is finally at an end (the Red Feathers' overall mission) and says "It's all over, Aya".

On page 15, Senhime mutters "Tenkai" to herself and then goes to get Yumemaru and Tenkai's fan. However, Senhime is saying that if the castle is going to burn, she'd rather burn along with it since she's never known life outside the castle - she's forcibly taken to safety by the soldiers. What happened to Yumemaru and the fan after that is hard to say - Senhime is carrying Yumemaru (and presumably the fan) at the bottom of page 16. How does the dog end up in the rubble outside the castle, separated from the fan slightly? (Clearly the dog searches for the fan, though it's nearby). I wonder why the dog (ie Souhaku) wants (needs?) the fan. He made those pretty lights without the fan, so it doesn't seem super-critical, but still...

Maybe during the last ~10 years, Souhaku has been managing to control Senhime a bit, and maybe even caused Sanada and co to get rebelious.


The main (pretty much only) timeline problem is the age of Ono Tadaaki (and when he entered into the Shogunate for the first time) as shown. If we shift him entering the Shogunate to 10 years later than history records, it doesn't seem to be a problem. Incidentally, I can across this:
http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/wa? ... S=&P=12483
Ono Tadaaki (original name: Mikogami Tenzen?) developed a system of swordsmanship that became known as the Ono-ha Itto-ryu when his son Ono Tadatsune succeeded assumed leadership. Tadaaki's birth date is not known, and although his is birth place is said by some accounts to be Ise province (modern Mie prefecture) or Shinano province (modern Nagano prefecture), this is not true. He is believed to be descended from a clan originating in Yamato province (currently Nara prefecture). His ancestors arrived in the Mikogami area of Maruyama village, Izumi county, Kazusa province (modern Chiba prefecture) where they became local samurai, eventually vowing their allegiance to the Satomi clan.

Tadaaki's great-grandfather, Mikogami Daizo, was a member of the Satomi clan's inner council with an annual stipend of 600 koku. His grandfather, Shozo, was assigned to the service of Manki Shohitsu, whose family was affiliated with the Satomi clan. Shozo's rank afforded him a 100 koku stipend. At the battle of Inukake in 1534, Shozo encountered Kiso Shingo (a renowned warrior of the opposing force and the great-uncle of Kiso Shokuro, a famous practitioner of Gen-ryu kenjutsu) in single combat. Both men died of their injuries. Tadaaki's father was Mikogami Shige and his mother was of the Ono clan.

As a struggle for power between the Manki and Satomi clans grew, the Satomi launced a full-scale attack on the Manki castle in the middle of the 10th month, 1589. Tadaaki led 20 disguised foot soldiers into the mountains with the aim of confronting the leader of the attacking army, Masaki Tokitaka, in single combat. However, because of the shifting lines of battle, the encounter never took place. Although it is not known whether Takaaki joined Ito Ittosai (founder of Itto-ryu kenjutsu) on his travels in pursuit of martial training before or after the preceding battle, four years later in 1593 with the support of Issai's recommendation, Tadaaki entered the service of Tokugawa Ieyasu, becoming the instructor to Ieyasu's son and successor, Tokugawa Hidetada, and securing a stipend of 200 koku.

During an assault on the Ueda clan of Shinano province in 1600, Takaaki showed valor but violated military discipline. He was remanded to lesser service until the following year when he was reinstated with a stipend of 400 koku. He was later assigned two estates in Kazusa with a total stipend of 600 koku. During the siege of Osaka (1614), Tadaaki caused a dispute among the hatamoto retainers during the summer assault and was placed under house arrest. He died on the 7th day of the 11th month of 1628. His remains are buried at the Eikoji temple in Haniwa county, Shimosa province, where he had spent the later years of his life. Upon Tadaaki's death, his son Tadatsune assumed clan leadership and in 1633 was promoted to a stipend of 800 koku. He died on the 6th day of the 12th month in 1665 and was buried in the same temple as his father.

There is a well known story about Ono Tadaaki and how Ittosai ordered him to participate in a duel, at Koganehara in Shimosa, with a senior disciple named Zenki to determine Ittosai's successor. During the duel, Zenki hid behind a large pot and Tadaaki sliced through the pot to win the contest. Dubbed the "pot smashing blade," Tadaaki's sword was passed from generation to generation to the Ono clan's legitimate successor. Several versions of this story exist, differing in the names of the principles and the location.
Note the bit about 200-koku on first entering the Shogunate. This is the same "200 stones" as Fugu wrote it from Fight 91 (page 111 of v15). The kanji might be "stone" but "koku" is a measure of volume (in terms of rice in this context). Kinda like how roman soldiers were paid in "salt", rice was a measure of weath in this period. 1 koku = 180l

I also found it said elsewhere that he changed his name to Ono Tadaaki only after becoming a Shogunate retainer.

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:23 am

shouki wrote:Maybe during the last ~10 years, Souhaku has been managing to control Senhime a bit, and maybe even caused Sanada and co to get rebelious.
But did he actually die 10 years ago when Ichiyou found him and Senhime in the circle? It seems to me that he died and transfered his soul into Yumemaru.

Does that mean that Souhaku literally spent 10 years as a DOG? :lol: :lol: :lol:

When the soldiers save Senhime from getting raped, Yumemaru looks rather dead. But in the last scenes, he is separated from Senhime and alive again.

Also, I am wondering how did he manage to look almost identical in the Present Arc as he did in the Ancient Arc. One thing I can guess is that he met various women over the time, got children and transfered his soul in those children when they got older.
The main (pretty much only) timeline problem is the age of Ono Tadaaki (and when he entered into the Shogunate for the first time) as shown. If we shift him entering the Shogunate to 10 years later than history records, it doesn't seem to be a problem.
Here's a timeline I propose.

1582 - Kago Souhaku, disguised as Akechi Mitsuhide, kills Oda Nobunaga and enters Tokugawa's service as priest Tenkai

1593 - Ono Tadaaki joins the Tokugawa shogunate. Nobody gives a damn about him, he is just another samurai.

1605 - Ancient Arc. Ono Tadaaki is summoned to Osaka Castle and is ambushed by Shoujou and Kabane. Shoujou assumes Ono's identity, comes to Osaka in his stead, and transfers Ono's identity onto Yagyuu Yoshikatsu. Yoshikatsu/Ono goes wandering wherever. Shoujou assumes the identity of Tenkai/Souhaku. The latter is presumed dead after the Red Feathers' attack. Tokugawa Ieyasu resigns his position as Shogun, and relocates from Osaka to Edo (while still remaining the real power behind the scenes)

1615 - Siege of Osaka. Tokugawa Ieyasu reclaims Osaka Castle from Toyotomi Hideyori, who was married to Ieyasu's granddaughter, Senhime.

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Post by kk1 » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:42 am

MrProphet wrote:
shouki wrote:Maybe during the last ~10 years, Souhaku has been managing to control Senhime a bit, and maybe even caused Sanada and co to get rebelious.
But did he actually die 10 years ago when Ichiyou found him and Senhime in the circle? It seems to me that he died and transfered his soul into Yumemaru.

Does that mean that Souhaku literally spent 10 years as a DOG? :lol: :lol: :lol:

.
It seems he did, Senhime never left the castle and the barrier was constantly up. Only after the castle burns(along with the barrier) and Senhime leaves can Souhaku revive himself. Hmm maybe he was actually a dog the whole time and his human body was fake :D

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Post by shouki » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:04 am

MrProphet wrote:But did he actually die 10 years ago when Ichiyou found him and Senhime in the circle? It seems to me that he died and transfered his soul into Yumemaru.
Well, that body seems dead. Maybe Souhaku realised he could no longer sustain that body and get out from the circle in tmie - but did just about have enough power to transfer into the dog, maybe sacrificing his old body's eye in the process. Maybe that fan helped in some way...

Hopefully, we'll get an explanation next time or something. I'm sure Aya would have seen the full details of what happened.

Does that mean that Souhaku literally spent 10 years as a DOG? :lol: :lol: :lol:

When the soldiers save Senhime from getting raped, Yumemaru looks rather dead. But in the last scenes, he is separated from Senhime and alive again.
Yumemaru should have died ~10 years ago. So by now should be a collection of bones. But clearly the body is still intact. So I think that's Souhaku's power at work.


Also, I am wondering how did he manage to look almost identical in the Present Arc as he did in the Ancient Arc. One thing I can guess is that he met various women over the time, got children and transfered his soul in those children when they got older.
Maybe he can simply alter how his body looks (like some other characters)

Here's a timeline I propose.

1582 - Kago Souhaku, disguised as Akechi Mitsuhide, kills Oda Nobunaga and enters Tokugawa's service as priest Tenkai

1593 - Ono Tadaaki joins the Tokugawa shogunate. Nobody gives a damn about him, he is just another samurai.

1605 - Ancient Arc. Ono Tadaaki is summoned to Osaka Castle and is ambushed by Shoujou and Kabane. Shoujou assumes Ono's identity, comes to Osaka in his stead, and transfers Ono's identity onto Yagyuu Yoshikatsu. Yoshikatsu/Ono goes wandering wherever. Shoujou assumes the identity of Tenkai/Souhaku. The latter is presumed dead after the Red Feathers' attack. Tokugawa Ieyasu resigns his position as Shogun, and relocates from Osaka to Edo (while still remaining the real power behind the scenes)

1615 - Siege of Osaka. Tokugawa Ieyasu reclaims Osaka Castle from Toyotomi Hideyori, who was married to Ieyasu's granddaughter, Senhime.
That's another possibility. Though the Ono Tadaaki in the Ancient Arc is written like it is 1592-3. The guy was demoted from being a full retainer for a while, but came back at 400-koku not 200. The way the his intro is going it does sound like the start, not coming back.

In page 71 of v15 (chapter 90), it's said to be the Tenshou period (1573 to 1592), which fits with Ono signing up to the Shogunate for the first time.

I suspect it's more of a case of Oh Great! either changing his mind on the setting part-way through the ancient arc, making a mistake in looking up history, or deciding to change things. As you seem to be suggesting, we can "re-interpret" the start of this ancient arc to be starting in ~1605 - that's the easiest way to settle things.

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Post by shouki » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:06 am

kk1 wrote:It seems he did, Senhime never left the castle and the barrier was constantly up. Only after the castle burns(along with the barrier) and Senhime leaves can Souhaku revive himself. Hmm maybe he was actually a dog the whole time and his human body was fake :D
Maybe that fan is somehow his true self :roll:

Reminds me of a story early on in Inuyasha with a girl youkai who's true body was a comb.

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:27 am

shouki wrote:Yumemaru should have died ~10 years ago. So by now should be a collection of bones. But clearly the body is still intact. So I think that's Souhaku's power at work.
Well, judging solely by appearance, Yumemaru looks like a papillon dog breed, and those can live up to 15 years, so it's not completely out of the question.
I suspect it's more of a case of Oh Great! either changing his mind on the setting part-way through the ancient arc, making a mistake in looking up history, or deciding to change things. As you seem to be suggesting, we can "re-interpret" the start of this ancient arc to be starting in ~1605 - that's the easiest way to settle things.
Unfortunately, knowing sensei's already developed taste for retconning and changing stuff on the go, this is all too possible.

I would still think that, being such a history buff, he has it right and we are not seeing the complete picture, but I am starting to have my doubts.

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Post by kk1 » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:52 am

shouki wrote:
MrProphet wrote:But did he actually die 10 years ago when Ichiyou found him and Senhime in the circle? It seems to me that he died and transfered his soul into Yumemaru.
Well, that body seems dead. Maybe Souhaku realised he could no longer sustain that body and get out from the circle in tmie - but did just about have enough power to transfer into the dog, maybe sacrificing his old body's eye in the process. Maybe that fan helped in some way...

Hopefully, we'll get an explanation next time or something. I'm sure Aya would have seen the full details of what happened.

Does that mean that Souhaku literally spent 10 years as a DOG? :lol: :lol: :lol:

When the soldiers save Senhime from getting raped, Yumemaru looks rather dead. But in the last scenes, he is separated from Senhime and alive again.
Yumemaru should have died ~10 years ago. So by now should be a collection of bones. But clearly the body is still intact. So I think that's Souhaku's power at work.


.
Yes, it is. Shouki you pointed out Souhaku is bleeding from his one eye in the flashback to when Aya stabbed him. Check out yumemaru's eye in Senhime's arms on the same page then check it out on the last page. Looks like Souhaku survived as an eyeball inside the semi-dead Yumemaru for ten years then when the barrier was gone revived Yumemaru. Notice they leave Yumemaru's body in the castle on the floor on page 17. Hmm looks like their will be more eye plucking for the Nagi family in the present maybe Nagi and his mom can get matching patches :wink:

What's the blurb for next month say, I really hope this is the end of the past arc I really don't want to see the future adventures of Yumemaru/Souhaku the wonder dog.

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:05 am

That could be correct. Look here:

Image

There's our Yumemaru and the fan! Looks like Souhaku was indeed burried there, but got revived when the barrier collapsed with the castle tower.

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Post by shouki » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:17 am

MrProphet wrote:That could be correct. Look here:

Image

There's our Yumemaru and the fan! Looks like Souhaku was indeed burried there, but got revived when the barrier collapsed with the castle tower.
Hmm... Really need a better scan... but the patterns of the cloth and the vague shapes don't contradict the possibility.

btw, later, on page 22 there is an explosion - something the people inside the castle did. Maybe with Yumemaru left there, he got caught up in the explosion which is how he got separated from the fan.

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:20 am

shouki wrote:btw, later, on page 22 there is an explosion - something the people inside the castle did. Maybe with Yumemaru left there, he got caught up in the explosion which is how he got separated from the fan.
Well, he isn't separated from it. On the last page, the dog picks up the fan right away after getting out from the rubble.

Image

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Post by shouki » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:21 am

kk1 wrote:What's the blurb for next month say, I really hope this is the end of the past arc I really don't want to see the future adventures of Yumemaru/Souhaku the wonder dog.
Well, the "next month" stuff doesn't mean shit...

But anyway, it talks about walking out into the rain, and how this connects with the future (modern/current times)

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Post by shouki » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:23 am

MrProphet wrote:
shouki wrote:btw, later, on page 22 there is an explosion - something the people inside the castle did. Maybe with Yumemaru left there, he got caught up in the explosion which is how he got separated from the fan.
Well, he isn't separated from it. On the last page, the dog picks up the fan right away after getting out from the rubble.

Image
No, he was separated (at least a bit). Shakes himself (no fan visible). Then sniffs the air (looking around). Then see pick up fan in mouth (ie after having located it).

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Post by shouki » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:27 am

MrProphet wrote:
shouki wrote:Yumemaru should have died ~10 years ago. So by now should be a collection of bones. But clearly the body is still intact. So I think that's Souhaku's power at work.
Well, judging solely by appearance, Yumemaru looks like a papillon dog breed, and those can live up to 15 years, so it's not completely out of the question.
Er, I meant that after being dead for ~10 years, Yumemaru's corpse should have decomposed (apart from the bones and some bits of flesh). But the body is whole and doesn't look any different to when the dog died. That it hasn't decomposed is down to Souhaku's power, I'd say.

Remember that Yumemaru had already been revived by Souhaku before - and looked old beforehand. Souhaku revived him to look young too. When Mumemaru stepped into the barrier, he died and looked old again.

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:33 am

shouki wrote:Er, I meant that after being dead for ~10 years, Yumemaru's corpse should have decomposed (apart from the bones and some bits of flesh). But the body is whole and doesn't look any different to when the dog died. That it hasn't decomposed is down to Souhaku's power, I'd say.

Remember that Yumemaru had already been revived by Souhaku before - and looked old beforehand. Souhaku revived him to look young too. When Mumemaru stepped into the barrier, he died and looked old again.
The barrier does not cover the whole castle, only some parts of it. Notice how Souhaku revived Yumemaru several chapters ago, but the dog died again when it stepped into the barrier when the Red Feathers attacked.

This means that Senhime has probably lived these 10 years in a part of the castle where there is no magical barrier and it only got there again when the Siege began (or somehow like that).

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Post by Hollowshingami » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:44 pm

TT gets crazier and crazier. Surviving inside the corpse of a dog...
IF anything Souhaku is stubborn. I wonder if this past arc is Souhaku's first failure or it's something else entirely?

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Post by Ricco » Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:25 pm

Your average roach is easier to kill then Souhaku! He probably went to his gravesite in dog form and resurrected his dead body and put his eye back in it socket, or it just grew back like his finger tips. If he can take over a body by introducing part of him into it, I wonder what body part Nagi's gonna have cut off and replaced by one of Souhaku's. An eye would be the logical choice since he's been made to be Shin's copy(at least that's how he's treated early on) and is likely going to fight Mitsuomi soon.

The big question is if phantom Aya saw this, cuz we didn't see either her nor Reiki in this chapter and it would seem this is vital intelligence into killing Souhaku for good.
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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:56 pm

It would be quite amusing, if Oh! Great would never actually show us what Aya saw in Souhaku's final moments and keep it a secret for a while.

This way Aya can return to the present and tell everyone how DUM-DUM-DUM, she knows how to kill Souhaku, but the exact secret would not be let out untill she actually faces Souhaku or Souichiro to keep the tension.

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Post by Ricco » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:02 pm

MrProphet wrote:It would be quite amusing, if Oh! Great would never actually show us what Aya saw in Souhaku's final moments and keep it a secret for a while.

This way Aya can return to the present and tell everyone how DUM-DUM-DUM, she knows how to kill Souhaku, but the exact secret would not be let out untill she actually faces Souhaku or Souichiro to keep the tension.
Let's see: increases tension, a torture for the readers and borderline evil... it's so gonna happen! :D

They are already doing this with Maya' "death" (which is yet to be final) and method to save her so my guess is that you're right.
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Post by Agent_Wax » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:13 pm

Something doesn't jive... doesn't Shyoujyou need to kill someone in order to read and duplicate his/her ki? How could he become Souhaku if Souhaku is not actually dead?
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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:12 pm

Agent_Wax wrote:Something doesn't jive... doesn't Shyoujyou need to kill someone in order to read and duplicate his/her ki? How could he become Souhaku if Souhaku is not actually dead?
No, he only has to touch them, or even just be in their presense. Shoujou Tokuan has copied Yagyuu techniques just by being near Yagyuu Yoshikatsu.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:33 pm


"Swallow your food whole, fool! Do you not know that mastication makes you go blind?"

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Post by kk1 » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:26 pm

Hollowshingami wrote:TT gets crazier and crazier. Surviving inside the corpse of a dog...
IF anything Souhaku is stubborn. I wonder if this past arc is Souhaku's first failure or it's something else entirely?
More patient than anything I guess that comes with being immortal, imagine if Senhime hadn't left and the castle seiged he could have spent decades longer in the dog. He dissapeared for another decade after transfering Makiko's powers to Tetsuhito, when the guy has a plan it seems he doesn't care how long it takes. I wonder if we'll ever see when the other families discover that he somehow survived.

Another thing no one has brought up, where's Reiki? Remember at the end of the last chapter alot of us speculated we'd finally get to see why Souhaku is afraid of Reiki and how it was used to defeat him? Well? Looks like they didn't need Reiki after all, he must just fear the extra power it gives red feathers in general, besides my theory it can suck out his ki too fast to use his power and kill him I really don't see what the fuss was about. Though am I wrong or didn't ghost Reiki tell Aya she would reveal a secret about herself and then merge with her or something? Oh! Great is worse than Chris Claremont in the old X-men days at starting new stories before finishing old ones first, as someone said I can't believe we're still left hanging as to Maya's fate that was 8 chapters ago! :shock:

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Post by kk1 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:55 am

shouki wrote:
I think the person on page 17 (among the falling and burning beams) is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyotomi_Hideyori

Though according to that:
In 1600, after his victory over the others at the Battle of Sekigahara, Tokugawa Ieyasu seized control. Hideyori married the seven year old granddaughter of Ieyasu, Senhime, to ensure his loyalty towards the Tokugawa clan. However Ieyasu continued to view the young Hideyori as a potential threat, and attacked Hideyori in the Siege of Osaka in winter 1614. The attack failed, but Hideyori was induced to sign a truce and dismantle the defenses of his stronghold Osaka Castle.

In 1615, Ieyasu's son Hidetada betrayed the truce and attacked again. Hideyori was forced to flee to the mountains, where he committed suicide at the age of 22, thus putting an end to the official authority of Toyotomi's clan, which exist only a short decades of 30 years. and eventually paving the way for the 250-year Tokugawa Shogunate.
Well, he's effectively commiting suicide, but not in the mountains.
This was weird why redo history, and I wonder why we never see his face?

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Post by MrProphet » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:02 am

kk1 wrote:Another thing no one has brought up, where's Reiki? Remember at the end of the last chapter alot of us speculated we'd finally get to see why Souhaku is afraid of Reiki and how it was used to defeat him? Well? Looks like they didn't need Reiki after all, he must just fear the extra power it gives red feathers in general, besides my theory it can suck out his ki too fast to use his power and kill him I really don't see what the fuss was about.
Well, for one thing, Reiki is able to slice through protective barriers, but already knew that from the Maya/Kagiroi fight. And anyway, unless Kago mansion is laced with anti-ki barriers (or which there is no indication), Reiki doesn't really come into play in that manner.
He copied some techniques but not the entire person. Shyoujyou doesn't just mimic others. He practically becomes the other person. Would it have been necessary for them to kill all those people if their deaths were not required? Why not just imprison them somewhere? Surely the 12 families have enough clout to exile or kidnap a few people...
Yet nothing suggests that he is required to kill in order to use his power. He turned Yagyuu into Ono without any killing.

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Post by Dain » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:43 pm

Does anyone else think the guy on the bottom of page 29 (I didn't catch his name) looks like Bunshichi?

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Post by MrProphet » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:28 pm

Dain wrote:Does anyone else think the guy on the bottom of page 29 (I didn't catch his name) looks like Bunshichi?
His name is Sanada Yukimura and he is quite a legendary fellow. And to answer your question, he certainly does, if one considers his general physique, the sun-bleached hair and stubble on his chin.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:50 pm

Perhaps Bushichi is a descendent of Sanada? :D

Yet nothing suggests that he is required to kill in order to use his power. He turned Yagyuu into Ono without any killing.
Ahh, but he was only relinquishing the copied ki to someone else, not 'burning a new copy' himself. He copied Zenki and Ono only after they had been beheaded.
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Post by MrProphet » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:39 pm

Agent_Wax wrote:Ahh, but he was only relinquishing the copied ki to someone else, not 'burning a new copy' himself. He copied Zenki and Ono only after they had been beheaded.
That is actually a logical fallacy of implying causation from mere correlation.

Just because two events occur together, it is false to assume that one is the cause and the other is the effect. We don't even know the name of Shoujou's skill, much less the manner in which it works to make that kind of judgement.

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Post by kk1 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:07 pm

MrProphet wrote:
Agent_Wax wrote:Ahh, but he was only relinquishing the copied ki to someone else, not 'burning a new copy' himself. He copied Zenki and Ono only after they had been beheaded.
That is actually a logical fallacy of implying causation from mere correlation.

Just because two events occur together, it is false to assume that one is the cause and the other is the effect. We don't even know the name of Shoujou's skill, much less the manner in which it works to make that kind of judgement.
It seems to me he just uses his own ki to manipulate his and others faces, just like Maya, ancient arc Aya and Emi use their own ki to manipulate their bodies. His ability just seems that he has even more control to the point of reshaping faces and copying non-physical traits of other people. He read that guy he turned into Ono while he was alive, though he was using Reiki, Reiki only enhances(gives more control, I don't know a good way to say it) a power someone already has.

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Post by MrProphet » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:45 pm

Something like that.

Dragon Gates are ki-based techinques. Their power comes from within, but never from without. For a while we all thought that somehow Reiki was amplifying Shin's power, but it actually was only helping him control it. The technique itself, the Dragon Eye, came from Shin's own 8th Dragon Gate.

I see no reason that would suggest that Shoujou needs some kind of an external catalyst (like death) in order to copy others. It just depends on the ammount of ki that Shoujou was able to collect, but the rest came from him alone.

Killing Ono and Zenki was just a way of getting rid of the duplicates. After all, it would have serious fucked up their plan, if the original Ono came strolling into Osaka while Shoujou was deep undercover. 8)

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Post by HappyStealer » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:59 am

oh man, the whole nagi-body take over by souhaku would be quite teh twist. Though I don't want that to happen since that always tends to lead to that person sacrificing himself, its gonna be quite interesting. Ichiyou is just too cool btw. :D Lets see if souchirou could ever get that cool.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:16 am

My impression is that Shyoujyou absorbs the ki / soul of the freshly dead to merge with his own, turning him into a de facto 'copy' of the dead person. Note that the absorbed personality never entirely eclipses his own. He is still Shyoujyou, but also at the same time someone else. He then stores the ki until he is ready to relinquish it, either by just letting it dissipate or by transferring it to someone else permanently.

Killing Ono and Zenki was just a way of getting rid of the duplicates. After all, it would have serious fucked up their plan, if the original Ono came strolling into Osaka while Shoujou was deep undercover.
It is not really necessary to kill them, as I've pointed out above in a previous post. In the end, they're just bystanders who died without knowing the big picture or the reason why...
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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:43 am

Like I've already said, nothing in the actual text/images suggests what you are proposing, thus there is nothing to discuss here. *shrug*

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Post by kk1 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:35 pm

HappyStealer wrote:oh man, the whole nagi-body take over by souhaku would be quite teh twist. Though I don't want that to happen since that always tends to lead to that person sacrificing himself, its gonna be quite interesting. Ichiyou is just too cool btw. :D Lets see if souchirou could ever get that cool.
Doubt it :wink: I really hope we get back to the present next chapter, it should be really interesting what happens. Will Nagi just get taken over will Maya be alive and if she is will she have anything left to help Souichiro, what does Aya do? Save her sister or Souichiro, with OG drawing so may Madoka pics lately will she kick someone's ass, does Inue get revenge on Mitsuomi in his weakened state? Does anyone at the school ever get off their ass and do anything, will our Shoujyou and Kabane do anything or reveal who their even working with or for,and Will we ever see Bob again?

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Post by kk1 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:39 pm

Agent_Wax wrote:My impression is that Shyoujyou absorbs the ki / soul of the freshly dead to merge with his own, turning him into a de facto 'copy' of the dead person. Note that the absorbed personality never entirely eclipses his own. He is still Shyoujyou, but also at the same time someone else. He then stores the ki until he is ready to relinquish it, either by just letting it dissipate or by transferring it to someone else permanently.

...
But as the ghost Reiki told Aya ki dissipates when you die, he most likely reads them while they are still living and that's it just reads it, no storing etc. Why would that be necessary? And he didn't transfer any of Ono's to what's his name he just changed his face.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:47 am

kk1 wrote:
But as the ghost Reiki told Aya ki dissipates when you die, he most likely reads them while they are still living and that's it just reads it, no storing etc. Why would that be necessary? And he didn't transfer any of Ono's to what's his name he just changed his face.
Well, given what's been established I would surmise that Shyoujyou turned Yagyu into Ono, and not just changed his face. A face won't really allow Ono to really 'live on'. And I interpreted the killing as necessary to release the person's ki, which Shyoujyou can absorb instead of letting it dissipate. Of course, that's just how I saw and interpreted of it. :)

MrProphet wrote:
Like I've already said, nothing in the actual text/images suggests what you are proposing, thus there is nothing to discuss here. *shrug*
Now you're just being condescending. Sure, it's just my interpretation of Shyoujyou's powers. I mean, it's not like I had any direct evidence of it, unlike your reasoning that because Nobunaga and Aya appeared at different ends of the same chapter, Nobunaga must have given Reiki to Aya. Or like when this 'ninja whore' appeared on a military gunship holding a naginata in a chapter heading she was, of course, a Wani, and anyone else who thought otherwise deserved insult. Nope, not the same at all... :roll:

But since I'm the better man, I don't bring things like that up.

Much.
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Post by MrProphet » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:50 am

Well, what do you want me to say?

You proposed that since Shoujou killed Ono, then killing is a prerequisite for his copying techinque. But that is a logical fallacy! Just because two events occur at the same time does not prove that one is a cause and the other is the effect.

The only way to demonstrate that it is not a fallacy is by showing the exact mechanism of Shoujou's copying technique. Which, of course, is impossible at this time.
Correlation implies causation, also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin for "with this, therefore because of this") and false cause, is a logical fallacy by which two events that occur together are claimed to be cause and effect.

For example:

Teenage girls eat lots of chocolate.
Teenage girls are most likely to have acne.
Therefore, chocolate causes acne.

This argument, and any of this pattern, is an example of a false categorical syllogism. One observation about it is that the fallacy ignores the possibility that the correlation is coincidence. We can pick an example where the correlation is as statistically "robust" as we please, but we still cannot assume one factor causes the other. If chocolate-eating and acne were strongly correlated across cultures, and remained strongly correlated for decades or centuries, it may not be a mere coincidence. However, in this particular example, the last statement is a logical fallacy because it ignores the possibility that a third factor may be the cause of eating chocolate and having acne (e.g. being young). See joint effect.

Another important consideration is the presence or absence of a known mechanism which may explain how one event causes the other. Using the above example, if chocolate contains large quantities of hydrogenated fats, or trans-fatty acids, and if those have been shown to clog pores and thus cause acne, then the link between chocolate and acne is more believable. A counter-example would be astrology, where there is no convincing known mechanism to describe why personality would be affected by the position of the stars. Of course, the absence of a known mechanism doesn't preclude the possibility of an unknown mechanism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... _causation

I mean, just saying that you think so is great, but it doesn't prove it. I argee that it's fun to speculate, but so far you are not proving your point, so I just don't see what else is there to say...

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