Fight 96

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Fight 96

Post by Sleepy Weasel » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:44 am

smanga changed their site around. The old swf link wont work anymore, and its not the good ol single big image preview either on the new one :(

Image

Image

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Post by shouki » Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:56 am

So the ancient arc still isn't done. Hmm... I wonder what remains for us readers to find out... (I can't read much of the text but it's basically Ichiyou dropping in on Ieyasu and the fake Tenkai)

That cover-pic is great though!

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Post by MrProphet » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:18 pm

Heh, the feathers in modern clothing are cute. Let's see if I recognize them:

Top row: Wani, Kabane, Natsume, Shoujou
Bottom row: Tsumuji, Nagi, Kabuto.

Seems like Tokugawa's forces finally took Osaka Castle.

And the Flash preview is now here: http://www.s-manga.net/mens/uj/tenjou.swf

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Post by kk1 » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:20 pm

shouki wrote:So the ancient arc still isn't done. !
When will it end?! It's like he started another book.

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Post by Nakochan » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:26 pm

I love that pic at the beginning of the chapter. Past Nagi has got to be the cutest kid ever. Too bad present Nagi is such a tool. If he were more like his ancestor I could understand why Aya would be so obsessed with him. :?

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Post by Hollowshingami » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:31 pm

This arc will never end! XD I'm still interested in seeing what Oh Great has yet to cover with this past arc.

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Post by Pode777 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:06 am

Compared, how long was the arc about Shin? Took some time too right?

Anyways I'm starting to feel that Oh Great wants to wrap up the entire manga in this arc...I hope I'm wrong

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:45 am

Wow! What a chapter. Did she really do what I think she did?

http://www.mrprophet.com/temp/v16c96.zip

You can say that when least expected, the Ancient Arc took an unprecedented turn!

To be concise: as everything seems fine and dandy, Ichiyou visits Shoujou and Ieyasu, bids them goodbye and then leaves. On the road he sees a woman walking by with a little dog. What he doesn't notice is that this dog is all too familiar to us and the woman is none other than the bitch Inue Noriko Shindayuu! Thankfully, Aya does recognize Inue and follows her to the palace where Shoujou and Ieyasu stay. There we meet another familiar face: Kagiroi Tetsuhito, who demolishes Tokugawa's guards and kills Ieyasu himself.

Aya starts to see double vision of both the past and the present (or, maybe, future?), as she sees Souichiro and Shoujou face Inue. In both cases Inue swiftly puts out their right eye and implants Souhaku's eye. At least, that's the case with Shoujou, because we never see her implant the eye into Souichirou (we only see her jam a finger into his eyesocket). As the real Souhaku awakens inside Shoujou's fake Tenkai body, we see Ichiyou arriving at the gate of the palace to whitness all of this.

Unexpected, to say the least. Did Aya see what's actually hapening to Nagi, or was it just a premonition? If so, is he now Souhaku as well? In any case, the Ancient Arc continues, and next chapter we'll probably see Kago defeat Ichiyou.

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Post by protocol7 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:58 am

is nagi the main character at all?
u telling me that the main character is going to become eveil and at the end be saved.

:shock: ok then.

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Post by IwEL » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:39 am

if nagi was the main character he'd probably be the only main character in a manga story who has not a single panel in 1/3 of all volumes.
(and only 3 panels or so in v15 ^^ )
awesome chappy again, would be some huge turn of events if souichirou personality was lost but as nothing is certain yet we can only wait another month (geez)

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Post by kk1 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:01 am

Well we knew it was coming but...damn. So Inue is an ancient basan too, hmm figures, and what is with her feeling herself up when she's putting Souhaku's eye in Shoujyou?! :cry: Well Souichiro does lose his eye but we don't see Souhaku's get put in so I'm assuming next chapter it's back to the present to see if Aya can do anything to stop it...which I'm assuming she can't. She can't get there(physically) and who could she contact? Mits is at his limit, Maya's almost dead and Madoka is off helping fight. I forget it's never been explained how Inue(ironic name now right?) fits in with the red feathers? It hasn't right? We assumed she was a branch family for a while but it doesn't look like she is, I wonder if OG is going to throw anymore uniqued powered people at us. If Souichiro does become Souhaku I would imagine he'd have to because he is going to be pretty much unstoppable in his body. Man I could go on speculating forever...I'll say this for Oh! Great he never lets things get dull 8)

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Post by shouki » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:14 am

A lot sure goes on in this chapter. We even get told how Senhime's special power works (her Ki rotates in the opposite direction to everyone else).

I think Souhaku says that the only part of his body that's immortal is his right eye.

As for Souichirou, he got captured by Inue many chapters ago. I'd imagine that what Aya saw has already happened (compared to the time her body is in). For a while now, I've been expectig Souhaku to take over Souichirou's body - and Aya will have to fight him to save him. ie, all the info Aya is picking up from this flashback is going to become absolutely critical right away.

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Post by Hollowshingami » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:49 am

It really looks like Nagi is screwed.

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:52 am

Well, technically, Aya is travelling in the past, thus she can return back to her body at the almost exact same time she left it. I assume that she doesn't have to zoom forward the same amount that she zoomed back.

One thing I don't understand from this chapter is why there are two Kagiroi's running around at the same time. Remember chapter 91, when Aya sends Souhaku a warning through the crab? In Souhaku's mental image we see all 11 members of the 12 Founding Families.

Image

Here, look. From left to right those are clearly: Kabuto, Mawari, Natsume, Wani, Tsumuji, Hotaru, Kagiroi, Shoujou, Ishiyumi, Kabane and Nagi. The only one left is Kago himself.

So, why are there two of them? Did the Kagiroi power actually decend through 2 individuals, and Tetsuhito is even older than the current Kagiroi (maybe Tetsuhito is his great-great-great-uncle, or something). How does it work?
Last edited by MrProphet on Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:59 am

shouki wrote:A lot sure goes on in this chapter. We even get told how Senhime's special power works (her Ki rotates in the opposite direction to everyone else).

I think Souhaku says that the only part of his body that's immortal is his right eye.

As for Souichirou, he got captured by Inue many chapters ago. I'd imagine that what Aya saw has already happened (compared to the time her body is in). For a while now, I've been expectig Souhaku to take over Souichirou's body - and Aya will have to fight him to save him. ie, all the info Aya is picking up from this flashback is going to become absolutely critical right away.
What Nagi says is from fight 89, exactly when the past arc started so Aya's time travelling occurred with no time passing in the present, he obviously did lose his eye but I see next chapter starting with Inue just plucking souhaku's eye from his head. Then I see the possibility for a major twist, Maya is able to whisper to Mits what's going on or Aya is able to tell him (I think there's a good reason OG had him send Madoka off and Maya unable to fight) and Mits goes back and stops Inue from sticking his eye in Nagi but leaves himself too weak and Inue forced to use Mitsuomi as the only alternative to be Souhaku's host. This leaves Nagi as the main character, prevents Souhaku from becoming an unstoppable god and gives every character(Aya, Nagi, Madoka, Masataka, Maya) a reason to kick Mitsuomi's ass at the tournament. :twisted:

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:04 am

kk1 wrote:Then I see the possibility for a major twist, Maya is able to whisper to Mits what's going on or Aya is able to tell him (I think there's a good reason OG had him send Madoka off and Maya unable to fight) and Mits goes back and stops Inue from sticking his eye in Nagi but leaves himself too weak and Inue forced to use Mitsuomi as the only alternative to be Souhaku's host. This leaves Nagi as the main character, prevents Souhaku from becoming an unstoppable god and gives every character(Aya, Nagi, Madoka, Masataka, Maya) a reason to kick Mitsuomi's ass at the tournament. :twisted:
That would go against Souhaku's very plan, which is to be reincarnated in Souichirou's ultimate dragon gate body. Mits might be a Takayanagi, but Souhaku clearly wants to have the Dragon Gates, which Mitsuomi lacks.

Additionally, I don't see how he can stop Inue from using Nagi short of killing Nagi, which would kinda defeat the point of the whole saving plan. Maybe he can kill Inue, but that just brings us to square one.

But you might be right about Mitsuomi saving Nagi in some other way, though.
I forget it's never been explained how Inue(ironic name now right?) fits in with the red feathers?
According to Mitsuomi, she is the Head Advisor to the Red Feathers. Whatever that means... We've speculated that she is from Kago's branch family because she obviously serves him and she has a Dragon Gate (Dragon Roar), which looks suspiciously like an aspect of Kago's mind-controlling ability. So far, the only person with the 8th Dragon Gate that's not part of the Feathers was Senhime, and her's was special.

Oh, and it is quite ironic that she is walking with a dog this chapter, since her last name (Inue) roughly means "Dog Bay". 8)))

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Post by kk1 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:13 pm

MrProphet wrote:
One thing I don't understand from this chapter is why there are two Kagiroi's running around at the same time. Remember chapter 91, when Aya sends Souhaku a warning through the crab? In Souhaku's mental image we see all 11 members of the 12 Founding Families.

Image

Here, look. From left to right those are clearly: Kabuto, Mawari, Natsume, Wani, Tsumuji, Hotaru, Kagiroi, Shoujou, Ishiyumi, Kabane and Nagi. The only one left is Kago himself.

So, why are there two of them? Did the Kagiroi power actually decend through 2 individuals, and Tetsuhito is even older than the current Kagiroi (maybe Tetsuhito is his great-great-great-uncle, or something). How does it work?
People do have more than one kid, look at the Natsumes in the present at one point there were 2 parents and 3 kids, 2 with the dragon eye. And obviously in the past there were more Natsumes since past Aya obviously didn't live to have children. Also who knows how old Tetsuhito is, I always wondered if those extra pages from volume 14 where he's turning guys into meatballs ever explained any of that.

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Post by Ricco » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:40 pm

I think Nagi is still gonna be possesed and that Aya's time travel is simply gonna serve as a way to learn that Souhaku exist solely in Nagi's right eye. Aya's probably the only one who could put is eye out thanks to the Dragon eyes, others might be able to kill him but incapacitate or only take is eye out is near impossible for anyone other then Aya... or possibly Nagi himself is gonna take it out to stop Souhaku from killing Aya/Maya. One way or another Nagi is gonna get a Shin look very soon...
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Post by Hollowshingami » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:04 pm

I would just love it if Nagi stole Inue's gate right at that moment. That would rule. It's probably not gonna happen though.

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Post by shouki » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:04 pm

I wonder how long Aya's out of body experiance is going to continue for... It started all the way back in Fight 82! Considering Fight 87, I'd say there's a real-time link between Aya's physical body and her astral body.

With regards to the time travel, Aya is seeing it all with her Dragon's Eye directly. This is also how see saw the events 10-ish years ago (ie why see saw Shin as a monster at first).

Even for the "Ancient Arc", I would not think that Aya is cut off from her body - ie she's still directly linked, and cannot "choose" what time she returns to. In other words, if she spends a minute watching something in the past, she'll age a minute in the present. We don't know how much Aya has actually seen in the past - she's probably just been shown the critical bits, so maybe an hour or two in total.

On the other hand, it is possible this has happened a lot more quickly from Aya's body's point of view. I don't personally mind either way.

Maybe by the time Aya awakes, the others will have returned (with Mitsuomi carrying Maya for example), with Souichirou still missing. Or maybe Aya will wake up, get some emergency Ki (maybe by kissing the modern day Shoujou), and make a dash for Souhaku's place while the others are still fighting.

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:19 pm

shouki wrote:In other words, if she spends a minute watching something in the past, she'll age a minute in the present.
I think that's speculative. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. We won't know untill she 'wakes up', so to speak.

Aya is using her Dragon Eye to see the past, thus she isn't actually "time-travelling" in the common sense of the word, but rather seeing an elaborate illusion constructed by Reiki and the Dragon Eye. But we don't really know the "speed" of the illusion.

For all we know, it's happening instantaneously.
Maybe by the time Aya awakes, the others will have returned (with Mitsuomi carrying Maya for example), with Souichirou still missing. Or maybe Aya will wake up, get some emergency Ki (maybe by kissing the modern day Shoujou), and make a dash for Souhaku's place while the others are still fighting.
I find it humorous that the whole point of attacking Souhaku's mansion was to retrive Souichirou.

I guess among Tessen, Shizuru, Madoka, Maya and Mits, only Maya cared about Nagi, while others abbandoned ship as soon as Maya took a hit.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:05 pm

MrProphet wrote:
shouki wrote:In other words, if she spends a minute watching something in the past, she'll age a minute in the present.
I think that's speculative. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. We won't know untill she 'wakes up', so to speak.

Aya is using her Dragon Eye to see the past, thus she isn't actually "time-travelling" in the common sense of the word, but rather seeing an elaborate illusion constructed by Reiki and the Dragon Eye. But we don't really know the "speed" of the illusion.

For all we know, it's happening instantaneously.

.
Technically she is time travelling, just not her physical body. It was explained back in the first past arc that the Dragon's eye let's the user see the past and future, it's not an illusion constructed by Reiki or her power. Aya did actually see past events as they happened. As to fight 87 where Shujyou and Kabane were observing the effects of Aya using her power to be somewhere else that was the fight with Tetsuhito where it was happening in the present.

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Post by shouki » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:16 pm

MrProphet wrote:I think that's speculative.
Of course I'm speculating.

That's exactly why I wrote things like "I'd say" and "I would not think" and "On the other hand". If it wasn't speculation, I wouldn't have written it like that.
Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. We won't know untill she 'wakes up', so to speak.
Yup. Which is why I presented more than one possible scenario.

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:03 pm

kk1 wrote:Technically she is time travelling, just not her physical body. It was explained back in the first past arc that the Dragon's eye let's the user see the past and future, it's not an illusion constructed by Reiki or her power. Aya did actually see past events as they happened.
I think that isn't correct. Dragon Eye is all about perception, knowing something before it happens, percieving the nature of things. Aya's power, with Reiki's guidance, is recreating this knowledge in the form of the visions of the past. The only somewhat ambigous part was when Aya-2 called for Ichiyou when she was dying, which some have interepreted as Aya-2 feeling Aya's residual ki. But it was pretty ambigous and not very certain as to what really happened there.

But, in general, this is all semantics. To determine whethere Aya was time-travelling, we'd have to argee on a precise definition of time-travelling itself, which I think isn't really relevant to the story right now.

Whether Aya was actually travelling to the past in a spirit form, or was recreating it in her own mind is irrelevant, since it sheds no light on how much time actually passes in the Present World while Aya is away. Untill the Ancient Arc is over, we really don't know the answer.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:53 pm

MrProphet wrote:
think that isn't correct. Dragon Eye is all about perception, knowing something before it happens, percieving the nature of things. Aya's power, with Reiki's guidance, is recreating this knowledge in the form of the visions of the past.
But it was stated early on that Ryugan lets the user perceive things past and present. This isn't the first time Aya viewed past events with the Dragon Eye: she just didn't go back 400 years. It's also possible that she didn't know to look back 400 years until Reiki told her to. I thought perhaps Reiki is guiding Aya, telling her when and where to look, but the primary method is through her Dragon Eye.

Edit: So Shyoujyou is the Count of Monte Cristo, eh? :lol:
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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:48 pm

Well, that's what I meant as well. 8)

And Reiki is actually helping Aya control the Dragon Eye, just like it helped Shin. Although I don't know if Shin also had a naked babe constantly at his side. :roll:

And why is Shoujou the Count? :?

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Post by Hollowshingami » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:07 pm

Probably because of the way he's dressed.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:00 am

MrProphet wrote:
kk1 wrote:Technically she is time travelling, just not her physical body. It was explained back in the first past arc that the Dragon's eye let's the user see the past and future, it's not an illusion constructed by Reiki or her power. Aya did actually see past events as they happened.
I think that isn't correct.[/ quote]

Sorry but it is, as Agent_Wax pointed out, I'll give you the volume and page # if you want. And as he also pointed out Reiki is just a guide, which I don't think Shin ever had since I don't think he ever gained as much control over his power as Aya has. Aya even explains it back in the last volume

What is this ... !! Even if I plug my ears I can hear her ... Even if I close my eyes I can see her ...


I'm sure ... That I'm "seeing" this with the Dragon's Eye

It's like I'm in another dimension where I can use all my senses ... The "power" itself is being able to "feel" everything ... !!

By the way what the heck ever happened to Reiki in the past? That's one thing we never did get to see.

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:43 am

I don't see how that is proving that she is time-travelling.

The emphasis is on "seeing", "senses" and "feeling". Just as it ever was with the Dragon Eye. And I never disagreed with anything Agent_Wax said. In fact, he only confirmed my ideas.

Dragon Eye is the ability to see the present, past and future. "See" is the key word. Not "travel".

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Post by Ricco » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:01 am

MrProphet wrote:I don't see how that is proving that she is time-travelling.

The emphasis is on "seeing", "senses" and "feeling". Just as it ever was with the Dragon Eye. And I never disagreed with anything Agent_Wax said. In fact, he only confirmed my ideas.

Dragon Eye is the ability to see the present, past and future. "See" is the key word. Not "travel".
Then how about page 22 chapter 94, where past Aya "feels" the concern of futur Aya and mistakes her for Ichiyou? Past Aya even responds to futur's nod, that hard to do if all futur Aya can do is "see" the past...
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Post by kujoe » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:37 am

I was wondering about that part too.

Anyway, what Aya has seen doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen. For now at least, it serves as a warning, and remains as a scenario that Aya must somehow prevent from happening—unless of course, if it's actually happening as she's seeing it. Heck, it probably has happened already for all we know. Either way, it would be interesting to see where this all goes.

But assuming that it still might happen later on, does this mean that Aya will do something about it? Is it her turn, after Maya has failed, to go after Souichirou? If so, I hope that Bob will be joining her. He can't stay in bed forever. And I would definitely like to see Aya kick some ass again.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:05 pm

MrProphet wrote: I don't see how that is proving that she is time-travelling.
Well she can go back to a previous time and see, smell, feel, tatse and hear everything that happened, just without her physical body. You don't want to call that time-travel fine, but it's pretty close.

MrProphet wrote:
The emphasis is on "seeing", "senses" and "feeling". Just as it ever was with the Dragon Eye. And I never disagreed with anything Agent_Wax said. In fact, he only confirmed my ideas.
I didn't say you did, and no he didn't he confirmed mine.
You said "I think that isn't correct. Dragon Eye is all about perception, knowing something before it happens, percieving the nature of things. Aya's power, with Reiki's guidance, is recreating this knowledge in the form of the visions of the past. "
He said "But it was stated early on that Ryugan lets the user perceive things past and present. "
which agrees with what I said "Technically she is time travelling, just not her physical body. It was explained back in the first past arc that the Dragon's eye let's the user see the past and future, it's not an illusion constructed by Reiki or her power."
So you're either disagreeing with both of us or neither of us. Because "I think that isn't correct." sure sounds like you're disagreeing with something.
MrProphet wrote:
Dragon Eye is the ability to see the present, past and future. "See" is the key word. Not "travel".
Well if you could go back in time in a ship but could only observe things through a window on the ship is it still time travelling? Aya's ki can physically interact with someone as we saw with the fight with Tetsuhito and past Aya dying. I don't know how far OG is going to develop that power's influence such as allowing her to actually alter past events but it is definately more than just "seeing".

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Post by shouki » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:53 pm

Random thoughts time...

Before the ancient arc started, the "ghost" suggested to Aya that the info she's about to get will help her save Maya, Mitsuomi... and Souichirou.

Maya is dead or at death's door, Mitsuomi thinks his life will run out soon, and while Souichirou doesn't seem in mortal danger, he certainly needs to be "saved".

I expect Souhaku's right eye to be planted into Souichirou, enabling Souhaku to own all of Souichirou's skills. Before, I had been thinking that Souichirou will be able to turn the tables on Souhaku in the end and absorb Souhaku's dragon. Perhaps Aya helps get Souhaku's right eye out and Souichirou punches it, for example. Then, Souichirou can use Souhaku's dragon to save the others.

However, maybe, just maybe, there is another possibility. Perhaps using Reiki, Aya can absorb Souhaku's power into herself. We saw ancient Shoujou use Reiki to "read" someone's sword skills for example. Upgrade such an ability by a level and maybe you can suck up people's dragons. Maybe such a special thing can only be done with the real form of Reiki.

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:58 pm

Then how about page 22 chapter 94, where past Aya "feels" the concern of futur Aya and mistakes her for Ichiyou? Past Aya even responds to futur's nod, that hard to do if all futur Aya can do is "see" the past...
See my note above.
Well if you could go back in time in a ship but could only observe things through a window on the ship is it still time travelling?
You too, see above. I'll even autoquote for your viewing pleasure.
But, in general, this is all semantics. To determine whethere Aya was time-travelling, we'd have to argee on a precise definition of time-travelling itself, which I think isn't really relevant to the story right now.
I don't know if you missed that with the purpose of, I dunno, putting one over me for old times' sake, or something, but you are arguing something which I think is pretty pointless. :lol: :lol: :lol:

There is nothing actually to be gained from arguing either way because it's irrelevant to the story and what's the point, anyway? Is there anything to be gained by arguing this? Sothing to understand about the story? Some major implication to be discovered. I don't think so. If you do, then be me guest, but I'll take my leave. 8)
Before the ancient arc started, the "ghost" suggested to Aya that the info she's about to get will help her save Maya, Mitsuomi... and Souichirou.
Well, one might say that this whole story arc, not just the ancient arc, but the Past Arc and everyone after the Bowling Alley was structured to lead us to the Election Tournament. Like that's happening anymore... 8)

I think Oh! Great has a habit of forgetting major plot points to satisfy his new story. 8)
However, maybe, just maybe, there is another possibility. Perhaps using Reiki, Aya can absorb Souhaku's power into herself.
But isn't the point of the Dragon Eye is that it can consume an unlimited amount of ki. While Dragon Gates are ki-based techniques, I don't think that consuming a Dragon Gate and consuming ki is the same thing. What you are proposing sounds more like a property of the Dragon Fist.

As for the Ancient Arc, at first I thought it was all about seeing how they can defeat Souhaku, the nature of his power and his weakness. We've learned that the eye is the key, but the Ancient Arc still continues. Does that mean we've yet to learn something from Ichiyou's fight with Souhaku?

Perhaps we'll see how the Dragon Fist can defeat Souhaku's Dragon Gate? Obviously, Ichiyou isn't going to steal Souhaku's power, but what if there are other properties of the Dragon Fist yet to be uncovered?

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Post by kk1 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:58 pm

shouki wrote:Random thoughts time...

Before the ancient arc started, the "ghost" suggested to Aya that the info she's about to get will help her save Maya, Mitsuomi... and Souichirou.

Maya is dead or at death's door, Mitsuomi thinks his life will run out soon, and while Souichirou doesn't seem in mortal danger, he certainly needs to be "saved".

I expect Souhaku's right eye to be planted into Souichirou, enabling Souhaku to own all of Souichirou's skills. Before, I had been thinking that Souichirou will be able to turn the tables on Souhaku in the end and absorb Souhaku's dragon. Perhaps Aya helps get Souhaku's right eye out and Souichirou punches it, for example. Then, Souichirou can use Souhaku's dragon to save the others.

However, maybe, just maybe, there is another possibility. Perhaps using Reiki, Aya can absorb Souhaku's power into herself. We saw ancient Shoujou use Reiki to "read" someone's sword skills for example. Upgrade such an ability by a level and maybe you can suck up people's dragons. Maybe such a special thing can only be done with the real form of Reiki.
Interesting thought, though I don't see it as possible using the ground rules OG has set for the Dragon Eye, remeber copying ki was Shoujyou's power. I've seen no indication the Dragon eye can mimic another power. What I don't get is Souhaku's original plans for both Makiko and Souichiro. Was he going to body transfer with Makiko originally but scrapped that after he realized her body was too weak? If all he wanted is a body with all the red feather powers why didn't he transfer Makiko's eye into himself instead of Tetsuhito? Was his body too weak to handle all that power? It must have been. Obviously Mitsuomi and Maya rushed his plans, was he through with Souichiro or was he going to have him absorb more dragon powers? Another thing, has he been in Shoujyou's body this whole time, or has he transferred again since then(obviously this confirms those 10 corpses surrounding Souichiro are Souhaku's old bodies)? Besides his own power it might explain why he was able to look younger back when he was with Makiko. And since it's not his body, who is Nagi's real dad? Is Souichiro really part Shoujyou? Weird stuff.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:09 pm

MrProphet wrote:
Then how about page 22 chapter 94, where past Aya "feels" the concern of futur Aya and mistakes her for Ichiyou? Past Aya even responds to futur's nod, that hard to do if all futur Aya can do is "see" the past...
See my note above.
Well if you could go back in time in a ship but could only observe things through a window on the ship is it still time travelling?
You too, see above. I'll even autoquote for your viewing pleasure.
But, in general, this is all semantics. To determine whethere Aya was time-travelling, we'd have to argee on a precise definition of time-travelling itself, which I think isn't really relevant to the story right now.
I don't know if you missed that with the purpose of, I dunno, putting one over me for old times' sake, or something, but you are arguing something which I think is pretty pointless. :lol: :lol: :lol:

There is nothing actually to be gained from arguing either way because it's irrelevant to the story and what's the point, anyway? Is there anything to be gained by arguing this? Sothing to understand about the story? Some major implication to be discovered. I don't think so. If you do, then be me guest, but I'll take my leave. 8)

?
Oh I agree arguing the semantics of time travel is pointless, my beef with what you said was that what Aya saw in the past was a creation of Reiki and the Dragon eye, my point is that it wasn't, what she actually experienced was the ki of the actual people and events of the past. She saw, heard, and felt the real events it wasn't an illusion in her mind's eye. It was just as real as her observation of the fight between Maya and Tetsuhito. I assume you'll admit you were wrong about that?

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Post by kk1 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:13 pm

shouki wrote:Random thoughts time...

Before the ancient arc started, the "ghost" suggested to Aya that the info she's about to get will help her save Maya, Mitsuomi... and Souichirou.

Maya is dead or at death's door, Mitsuomi thinks his life will run out soon, and while Souichirou doesn't seem in mortal danger, he certainly needs to be "saved".

.
I'm still waiting for that too, though I'm sure all this info is quite useful for Aya, we still haven't heard any real specifics. I mean poking Souhaku in the eye would have been useful before this but how is that going to help anyone now?

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:17 pm

I don't think there is any way to prove or disprove that.

We know that she can see present, future and past at a distance. That's the whole point of her power. Exactly how she does that is debatable, because we don't really know the exact mechanism.

Let's assume that Shin or Aya is in a fight. Or remember Shin's fight with Fu Chi'en. Shin clearly anticipated Fu Chi'en's moves and was able to win. But whethere he actually travelled in spirit into the future and saw Fu Chi'en's moves or simply fealt that Fu Chi'en is going to strike in such and such manner is unknown. When Aya saw Maya kissing Nagi, similarily, she just saw it in the water, she didn't actually travel there in spirit.

I think the point is that she can do it, not how she can.

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Post by shouki » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:39 pm

Just to make clear what I'm speculating about.
kk1 wrote:Interesting thought, though I don't see it as possible using the ground rules OG has set for the Dragon Eye, remeber copying ki was Shoujyou's power. I've seen no indication the Dragon eye can mimic another power.
I said using Reiki, not her Dragon Eye. Shoujou could only read the other guy's skills when using Reiki. (If it wasn't clear, I meant what Shoujou did towards the end of Fight 94 - which is the only time he used Reiki)

We've already seen that a Dragon Gate can be transfered by using the Dragon Fist (to person using Dragon Fist only - doesn't seem to be a way to reverse it), and by transfering the owner's eye (plus a bunch of hocus pocus). It doesn't seem unreasonable that there are other ways, and we probably haven't seen all of Reiki's powers yet.

This random theory of mine may require both Reiki and Aya's Dragon Eye. Maybe there is a reason why Reiki belongs to the Natsume family...

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Post by kk1 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:54 pm

shouki wrote:Just to make clear what I'm speculating about.
kk1 wrote:Interesting thought, though I don't see it as possible using the ground rules OG has set for the Dragon Eye, remeber copying ki was Shoujyou's power. I've seen no indication the Dragon eye can mimic another power.
I said using Reiki, not her Dragon Eye. Shoujou could only read the other guy's skills when using Reiki. (If it wasn't clear, I meant what Shoujou did towards the end of Fight 94 - which is the only time he used Reiki)

We've already seen that a Dragon Gate can be transfered by using the Dragon Fist (to person using Dragon Fist only - doesn't seem to be a way to reverse it), and by transfering the owner's eye (plus a bunch of hocus pocus). It doesn't seem unreasonable that there are other ways, and we probably haven't seen all of Reiki's powers yet.

This random theory of mine may require both Reiki and Aya's Dragon Eye. Maybe there is a reason why Reiki belongs to the Natsume family...
Oh I understood, but it wasn't Reiki that allowed Shoujyuo to copy his ki just to be able to do it at a distance or to copy a skill more fully(I'm not sure about the extent of his powers without Reiki). Reiki is more of a "potential releaser" it seems to allow the user full access to their own inate abilities, which would be extremely difficult if not impossible on their own. So I understand your point but unless that is an ability of the Dragon Eye already (which I don't think it is) Reiki isn't going to change that.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:58 pm

MrProphet wrote:I don't think there is any way to prove or disprove that.

We know that she can see present, future and past at a distance. That's the whole point of her power. Exactly how she does that is debatable, because we don't really know the exact mechanism.

Let's assume that Shin or Aya is in a fight. Or remember Shin's fight with Fu Chi'en. Shin clearly anticipated Fu Chi'en's moves and was able to win. But whethere he actually travelled in spirit into the future and saw Fu Chi'en's moves or simply fealt that Fu Chi'en is going to strike in such and such manner is unknown. When Aya saw Maya kissing Nagi, similarily, she just saw it in the water, she didn't actually travel there in spirit.

I think the point is that she can do it, not how she can.
The mechanism is ki like all the powers. Well obviously there is no actual travel physically, that's why I quoted what Aya said in the past arc, she said it's like she's in another dimension where she can use all her senses. So for Shin and Aya they feel like they go into another dimension and see, hear, smell, etc. whatever is going on.

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:23 pm

To add to kk1's remark, Reiki isn't a source of any power by itself. It's just a device to control one's own power to higher degree of precision.

Shoujou was just using his own Dragon Gate (copycat ability) more efficienly using Reiki. You might say that Reiki made him better at it, but it added nothing he didn't already have. It was the same thing with Shin, whose Dragon Eye made him go mad, while Reiki helped him to control it better.

The only other power Reiki has is to break down magical barriers when it is infused with the Dragon Eye (like Maya and Aya did to Tetsuhito). Since Maya can use ki, it would seem that Reiki specifically needs Aya's Dragon Eye to get activated, not just any random ki. That property of Reiki could actually prove to be even more important than its stabilisator role.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:44 pm

protocol7 wrote:is nagi the main character at all?
As per the quite funny line from the first chapter: "I'm supposed to be the hero!" Quite funny in retrospect (although, very funny then too.)

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Post by kk1 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:36 am

You know what I just thought of, with how Oh Great! likes to repeat stuff and the theme of Maya is repeating her mistake with Shin with Nagi now. Shin had the eyepatch now Nagi after losing an eye (if he gets rescued) will have to wear one(like his mom too). I wonder if his will have a swaztika on it too?

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Post by HappyStealer » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:50 am

I'm just amazed at the way the ancient arc has become so informational. First we find out a bunch of things about the past members and are introduced to past aya and ichiyou (ichyou totally rocks btw) and now we find out how souhaku has been getting around all these years and why he's been making nagi "eat" all those dragon gates. What a way to end the chapter...... I'm really excited to see what happens next month.... Mr. Prophet, I'd like to also see if there is more to the dragon's fist than what has been stated so far. Hopefully, with a experienced and well, better user of the dragon fist than souchirou, maybe ichiyou can show us how its really used like how aya2 showed us that the dragon's eye has more to it. Oh! Great has definitely stepped it up in this chapter. *cheers*
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Post by Hollowshingami » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:52 am

Damn, it really does go with that theme. The other past arc seems so long ago, kinda was actually. That way he can avoid having Souhaku taking over Nagi and such. That's what I'm hoping for anyway. Although Inue can just shove the eye in somebody else. But more than likely Nagi will be the recipent of it. :roll:

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Post by HappyStealer » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:57 am

yah LOL, tho there is a slight chance that he might not get taken over...... He can still wear the patch and somehow avoid being taken over :roll:

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Post by kk1 » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:08 am

HappyStealer wrote: Mr. Prophet, I'd like to also see if there is more to the dragon's fist than what has been stated so far. Hopefully, with a experienced and well, better user of the dragon fist than souchirou, maybe ichiyou can show us how its really used like how aya2 showed us that the dragon's eye has more to it.*
I hope I can answer instead of Mr. P :wink: Ichiyou did use the dragon fist, when they were assaulting the castle on the roof, 3 monks used what looked like a power similar to Fu chi'en's lightning and Ichiyou absorbed the blast. Though we already saw that from the expert user of the present, Makiko, though Ichiyou's arm didn't blow up :P We aslo saw him punch that sword but we knda already seen Nagi do that when he fought Ishiyumi and turned his arm to mush. I think we've seen all there is to see with the dragon fist, I'm trying to think any red feather powers we haven't seen used to their potential yet? None I can think of.

Edit: I thought of one, I'm not sure whose it is, it must be a branch family but whatever power it was that Tetsuhito used to turn those guys into meatballs on those extra pages in volume 14.
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Post by MrProphet » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:22 am

I think we'll see more of the Dragon Fist next month. Maybe even an explanation of how it works (especially if it will matter back in the Present Arc).

The present Kabane has stated that: <i>"Dragon's Eye" which can consume an unlimited supply of "ki", there was the "Dragon's Fist" which can collect and supply huge amounts of ki."</i> I think that means that the purpose of the Dragon Fist is not only to steal Dragon Gates, but in fact ANY kind of ki. So, when Ichiyou and Makiko are taking off the power from those guards and Souichirou, they are collecting ki in themselves.

As for other powers, I'd like to know more about Kabane's power and whether Hotaru's power has some kind of an offensive variation. We might see more of Kabane when Aya returns to her body.

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Post by kujoe » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:36 pm

kk1 wrote:You know what I just thought of, with how Oh Great! likes to repeat stuff and the theme of Maya is repeating her mistake with Shin with Nagi now. Shin had the eyepatch now Nagi after losing an eye (if he gets rescued) will have to wear one(like his mom too). I wonder if his will have a swaztika on it too?
I think I already commented on this before. Through some twisted turn of events, Nagi seems to be treading a similar road as Shin once did. Previously, a few characters have gotten the Shin vibes from Nagi. Asshat did, and so did Mitsuomi. (kinda... and I suppose Maya saw something too) And well, it's not that hard to see that Nagi is being thrown into the "manipulated red feather" bit just like Shin. The present arc may be different now, but some things don't change that easily it seems.

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