Fight 96
Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:44 am
smanga changed their site around. The old swf link wont work anymore, and its not the good ol single big image preview either on the new one
Manga Translation by fans, for fans.
http://mangatranslation.com/forums/
When will it end?! It's like he started another book.shouki wrote:So the ancient arc still isn't done. !
What Nagi says is from fight 89, exactly when the past arc started so Aya's time travelling occurred with no time passing in the present, he obviously did lose his eye but I see next chapter starting with Inue just plucking souhaku's eye from his head. Then I see the possibility for a major twist, Maya is able to whisper to Mits what's going on or Aya is able to tell him (I think there's a good reason OG had him send Madoka off and Maya unable to fight) and Mits goes back and stops Inue from sticking his eye in Nagi but leaves himself too weak and Inue forced to use Mitsuomi as the only alternative to be Souhaku's host. This leaves Nagi as the main character, prevents Souhaku from becoming an unstoppable god and gives every character(Aya, Nagi, Madoka, Masataka, Maya) a reason to kick Mitsuomi's ass at the tournament.shouki wrote:A lot sure goes on in this chapter. We even get told how Senhime's special power works (her Ki rotates in the opposite direction to everyone else).
I think Souhaku says that the only part of his body that's immortal is his right eye.
As for Souichirou, he got captured by Inue many chapters ago. I'd imagine that what Aya saw has already happened (compared to the time her body is in). For a while now, I've been expectig Souhaku to take over Souichirou's body - and Aya will have to fight him to save him. ie, all the info Aya is picking up from this flashback is going to become absolutely critical right away.
That would go against Souhaku's very plan, which is to be reincarnated in Souichirou's ultimate dragon gate body. Mits might be a Takayanagi, but Souhaku clearly wants to have the Dragon Gates, which Mitsuomi lacks.kk1 wrote:Then I see the possibility for a major twist, Maya is able to whisper to Mits what's going on or Aya is able to tell him (I think there's a good reason OG had him send Madoka off and Maya unable to fight) and Mits goes back and stops Inue from sticking his eye in Nagi but leaves himself too weak and Inue forced to use Mitsuomi as the only alternative to be Souhaku's host. This leaves Nagi as the main character, prevents Souhaku from becoming an unstoppable god and gives every character(Aya, Nagi, Madoka, Masataka, Maya) a reason to kick Mitsuomi's ass at the tournament.
According to Mitsuomi, she is the Head Advisor to the Red Feathers. Whatever that means... We've speculated that she is from Kago's branch family because she obviously serves him and she has a Dragon Gate (Dragon Roar), which looks suspiciously like an aspect of Kago's mind-controlling ability. So far, the only person with the 8th Dragon Gate that's not part of the Feathers was Senhime, and her's was special.I forget it's never been explained how Inue(ironic name now right?) fits in with the red feathers?
People do have more than one kid, look at the Natsumes in the present at one point there were 2 parents and 3 kids, 2 with the dragon eye. And obviously in the past there were more Natsumes since past Aya obviously didn't live to have children. Also who knows how old Tetsuhito is, I always wondered if those extra pages from volume 14 where he's turning guys into meatballs ever explained any of that.MrProphet wrote:
One thing I don't understand from this chapter is why there are two Kagiroi's running around at the same time. Remember chapter 91, when Aya sends Souhaku a warning through the crab? In Souhaku's mental image we see all 11 members of the 12 Founding Families.
Here, look. From left to right those are clearly: Kabuto, Mawari, Natsume, Wani, Tsumuji, Hotaru, Kagiroi, Shoujou, Ishiyumi, Kabane and Nagi. The only one left is Kago himself.
So, why are there two of them? Did the Kagiroi power actually decend through 2 individuals, and Tetsuhito is even older than the current Kagiroi (maybe Tetsuhito is his great-great-great-uncle, or something). How does it work?
I think that's speculative. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. We won't know untill she 'wakes up', so to speak.shouki wrote:In other words, if she spends a minute watching something in the past, she'll age a minute in the present.
I find it humorous that the whole point of attacking Souhaku's mansion was to retrive Souichirou.Maybe by the time Aya awakes, the others will have returned (with Mitsuomi carrying Maya for example), with Souichirou still missing. Or maybe Aya will wake up, get some emergency Ki (maybe by kissing the modern day Shoujou), and make a dash for Souhaku's place while the others are still fighting.
Technically she is time travelling, just not her physical body. It was explained back in the first past arc that the Dragon's eye let's the user see the past and future, it's not an illusion constructed by Reiki or her power. Aya did actually see past events as they happened. As to fight 87 where Shujyou and Kabane were observing the effects of Aya using her power to be somewhere else that was the fight with Tetsuhito where it was happening in the present.MrProphet wrote:I think that's speculative. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. We won't know untill she 'wakes up', so to speak.shouki wrote:In other words, if she spends a minute watching something in the past, she'll age a minute in the present.
Aya is using her Dragon Eye to see the past, thus she isn't actually "time-travelling" in the common sense of the word, but rather seeing an elaborate illusion constructed by Reiki and the Dragon Eye. But we don't really know the "speed" of the illusion.
For all we know, it's happening instantaneously.
.
Of course I'm speculating.MrProphet wrote:I think that's speculative.
Yup. Which is why I presented more than one possible scenario.Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. We won't know untill she 'wakes up', so to speak.
I think that isn't correct. Dragon Eye is all about perception, knowing something before it happens, percieving the nature of things. Aya's power, with Reiki's guidance, is recreating this knowledge in the form of the visions of the past. The only somewhat ambigous part was when Aya-2 called for Ichiyou when she was dying, which some have interepreted as Aya-2 feeling Aya's residual ki. But it was pretty ambigous and not very certain as to what really happened there.kk1 wrote:Technically she is time travelling, just not her physical body. It was explained back in the first past arc that the Dragon's eye let's the user see the past and future, it's not an illusion constructed by Reiki or her power. Aya did actually see past events as they happened.
But it was stated early on that Ryugan lets the user perceive things past and present. This isn't the first time Aya viewed past events with the Dragon Eye: she just didn't go back 400 years. It's also possible that she didn't know to look back 400 years until Reiki told her to. I thought perhaps Reiki is guiding Aya, telling her when and where to look, but the primary method is through her Dragon Eye.think that isn't correct. Dragon Eye is all about perception, knowing something before it happens, percieving the nature of things. Aya's power, with Reiki's guidance, is recreating this knowledge in the form of the visions of the past.
I think that isn't correct.[/ quote]MrProphet wrote:kk1 wrote:Technically she is time travelling, just not her physical body. It was explained back in the first past arc that the Dragon's eye let's the user see the past and future, it's not an illusion constructed by Reiki or her power. Aya did actually see past events as they happened.
Then how about page 22 chapter 94, where past Aya "feels" the concern of futur Aya and mistakes her for Ichiyou? Past Aya even responds to futur's nod, that hard to do if all futur Aya can do is "see" the past...MrProphet wrote:I don't see how that is proving that she is time-travelling.
The emphasis is on "seeing", "senses" and "feeling". Just as it ever was with the Dragon Eye. And I never disagreed with anything Agent_Wax said. In fact, he only confirmed my ideas.
Dragon Eye is the ability to see the present, past and future. "See" is the key word. Not "travel".
Well she can go back to a previous time and see, smell, feel, tatse and hear everything that happened, just without her physical body. You don't want to call that time-travel fine, but it's pretty close.MrProphet wrote: I don't see how that is proving that she is time-travelling.
I didn't say you did, and no he didn't he confirmed mine.MrProphet wrote:
The emphasis is on "seeing", "senses" and "feeling". Just as it ever was with the Dragon Eye. And I never disagreed with anything Agent_Wax said. In fact, he only confirmed my ideas.
Well if you could go back in time in a ship but could only observe things through a window on the ship is it still time travelling? Aya's ki can physically interact with someone as we saw with the fight with Tetsuhito and past Aya dying. I don't know how far OG is going to develop that power's influence such as allowing her to actually alter past events but it is definately more than just "seeing".MrProphet wrote:
Dragon Eye is the ability to see the present, past and future. "See" is the key word. Not "travel".
See my note above.Then how about page 22 chapter 94, where past Aya "feels" the concern of futur Aya and mistakes her for Ichiyou? Past Aya even responds to futur's nod, that hard to do if all futur Aya can do is "see" the past...
You too, see above. I'll even autoquote for your viewing pleasure.Well if you could go back in time in a ship but could only observe things through a window on the ship is it still time travelling?
I don't know if you missed that with the purpose of, I dunno, putting one over me for old times' sake, or something, but you are arguing something which I think is pretty pointless.But, in general, this is all semantics. To determine whethere Aya was time-travelling, we'd have to argee on a precise definition of time-travelling itself, which I think isn't really relevant to the story right now.
Well, one might say that this whole story arc, not just the ancient arc, but the Past Arc and everyone after the Bowling Alley was structured to lead us to the Election Tournament. Like that's happening anymore...Before the ancient arc started, the "ghost" suggested to Aya that the info she's about to get will help her save Maya, Mitsuomi... and Souichirou.
But isn't the point of the Dragon Eye is that it can consume an unlimited amount of ki. While Dragon Gates are ki-based techniques, I don't think that consuming a Dragon Gate and consuming ki is the same thing. What you are proposing sounds more like a property of the Dragon Fist.However, maybe, just maybe, there is another possibility. Perhaps using Reiki, Aya can absorb Souhaku's power into herself.
Interesting thought, though I don't see it as possible using the ground rules OG has set for the Dragon Eye, remeber copying ki was Shoujyou's power. I've seen no indication the Dragon eye can mimic another power. What I don't get is Souhaku's original plans for both Makiko and Souichiro. Was he going to body transfer with Makiko originally but scrapped that after he realized her body was too weak? If all he wanted is a body with all the red feather powers why didn't he transfer Makiko's eye into himself instead of Tetsuhito? Was his body too weak to handle all that power? It must have been. Obviously Mitsuomi and Maya rushed his plans, was he through with Souichiro or was he going to have him absorb more dragon powers? Another thing, has he been in Shoujyou's body this whole time, or has he transferred again since then(obviously this confirms those 10 corpses surrounding Souichiro are Souhaku's old bodies)? Besides his own power it might explain why he was able to look younger back when he was with Makiko. And since it's not his body, who is Nagi's real dad? Is Souichiro really part Shoujyou? Weird stuff.shouki wrote:Random thoughts time...
Before the ancient arc started, the "ghost" suggested to Aya that the info she's about to get will help her save Maya, Mitsuomi... and Souichirou.
Maya is dead or at death's door, Mitsuomi thinks his life will run out soon, and while Souichirou doesn't seem in mortal danger, he certainly needs to be "saved".
I expect Souhaku's right eye to be planted into Souichirou, enabling Souhaku to own all of Souichirou's skills. Before, I had been thinking that Souichirou will be able to turn the tables on Souhaku in the end and absorb Souhaku's dragon. Perhaps Aya helps get Souhaku's right eye out and Souichirou punches it, for example. Then, Souichirou can use Souhaku's dragon to save the others.
However, maybe, just maybe, there is another possibility. Perhaps using Reiki, Aya can absorb Souhaku's power into herself. We saw ancient Shoujou use Reiki to "read" someone's sword skills for example. Upgrade such an ability by a level and maybe you can suck up people's dragons. Maybe such a special thing can only be done with the real form of Reiki.
Oh I agree arguing the semantics of time travel is pointless, my beef with what you said was that what Aya saw in the past was a creation of Reiki and the Dragon eye, my point is that it wasn't, what she actually experienced was the ki of the actual people and events of the past. She saw, heard, and felt the real events it wasn't an illusion in her mind's eye. It was just as real as her observation of the fight between Maya and Tetsuhito. I assume you'll admit you were wrong about that?MrProphet wrote:See my note above.Then how about page 22 chapter 94, where past Aya "feels" the concern of futur Aya and mistakes her for Ichiyou? Past Aya even responds to futur's nod, that hard to do if all futur Aya can do is "see" the past...
You too, see above. I'll even autoquote for your viewing pleasure.Well if you could go back in time in a ship but could only observe things through a window on the ship is it still time travelling?
I don't know if you missed that with the purpose of, I dunno, putting one over me for old times' sake, or something, but you are arguing something which I think is pretty pointless.But, in general, this is all semantics. To determine whethere Aya was time-travelling, we'd have to argee on a precise definition of time-travelling itself, which I think isn't really relevant to the story right now.
There is nothing actually to be gained from arguing either way because it's irrelevant to the story and what's the point, anyway? Is there anything to be gained by arguing this? Sothing to understand about the story? Some major implication to be discovered. I don't think so. If you do, then be me guest, but I'll take my leave.
?
I'm still waiting for that too, though I'm sure all this info is quite useful for Aya, we still haven't heard any real specifics. I mean poking Souhaku in the eye would have been useful before this but how is that going to help anyone now?shouki wrote:Random thoughts time...
Before the ancient arc started, the "ghost" suggested to Aya that the info she's about to get will help her save Maya, Mitsuomi... and Souichirou.
Maya is dead or at death's door, Mitsuomi thinks his life will run out soon, and while Souichirou doesn't seem in mortal danger, he certainly needs to be "saved".
.
I said using Reiki, not her Dragon Eye. Shoujou could only read the other guy's skills when using Reiki. (If it wasn't clear, I meant what Shoujou did towards the end of Fight 94 - which is the only time he used Reiki)kk1 wrote:Interesting thought, though I don't see it as possible using the ground rules OG has set for the Dragon Eye, remeber copying ki was Shoujyou's power. I've seen no indication the Dragon eye can mimic another power.
Oh I understood, but it wasn't Reiki that allowed Shoujyuo to copy his ki just to be able to do it at a distance or to copy a skill more fully(I'm not sure about the extent of his powers without Reiki). Reiki is more of a "potential releaser" it seems to allow the user full access to their own inate abilities, which would be extremely difficult if not impossible on their own. So I understand your point but unless that is an ability of the Dragon Eye already (which I don't think it is) Reiki isn't going to change that.shouki wrote:Just to make clear what I'm speculating about.
I said using Reiki, not her Dragon Eye. Shoujou could only read the other guy's skills when using Reiki. (If it wasn't clear, I meant what Shoujou did towards the end of Fight 94 - which is the only time he used Reiki)kk1 wrote:Interesting thought, though I don't see it as possible using the ground rules OG has set for the Dragon Eye, remeber copying ki was Shoujyou's power. I've seen no indication the Dragon eye can mimic another power.
We've already seen that a Dragon Gate can be transfered by using the Dragon Fist (to person using Dragon Fist only - doesn't seem to be a way to reverse it), and by transfering the owner's eye (plus a bunch of hocus pocus). It doesn't seem unreasonable that there are other ways, and we probably haven't seen all of Reiki's powers yet.
This random theory of mine may require both Reiki and Aya's Dragon Eye. Maybe there is a reason why Reiki belongs to the Natsume family...
The mechanism is ki like all the powers. Well obviously there is no actual travel physically, that's why I quoted what Aya said in the past arc, she said it's like she's in another dimension where she can use all her senses. So for Shin and Aya they feel like they go into another dimension and see, hear, smell, etc. whatever is going on.MrProphet wrote:I don't think there is any way to prove or disprove that.
We know that she can see present, future and past at a distance. That's the whole point of her power. Exactly how she does that is debatable, because we don't really know the exact mechanism.
Let's assume that Shin or Aya is in a fight. Or remember Shin's fight with Fu Chi'en. Shin clearly anticipated Fu Chi'en's moves and was able to win. But whethere he actually travelled in spirit into the future and saw Fu Chi'en's moves or simply fealt that Fu Chi'en is going to strike in such and such manner is unknown. When Aya saw Maya kissing Nagi, similarily, she just saw it in the water, she didn't actually travel there in spirit.
I think the point is that she can do it, not how she can.
As per the quite funny line from the first chapter: "I'm supposed to be the hero!" Quite funny in retrospect (although, very funny then too.)protocol7 wrote:is nagi the main character at all?
I hope I can answer instead of Mr. P Ichiyou did use the dragon fist, when they were assaulting the castle on the roof, 3 monks used what looked like a power similar to Fu chi'en's lightning and Ichiyou absorbed the blast. Though we already saw that from the expert user of the present, Makiko, though Ichiyou's arm didn't blow up We aslo saw him punch that sword but we knda already seen Nagi do that when he fought Ishiyumi and turned his arm to mush. I think we've seen all there is to see with the dragon fist, I'm trying to think any red feather powers we haven't seen used to their potential yet? None I can think of.HappyStealer wrote: Mr. Prophet, I'd like to also see if there is more to the dragon's fist than what has been stated so far. Hopefully, with a experienced and well, better user of the dragon fist than souchirou, maybe ichiyou can show us how its really used like how aya2 showed us that the dragon's eye has more to it.*
I think I already commented on this before. Through some twisted turn of events, Nagi seems to be treading a similar road as Shin once did. Previously, a few characters have gotten the Shin vibes from Nagi. Asshat did, and so did Mitsuomi. (kinda... and I suppose Maya saw something too) And well, it's not that hard to see that Nagi is being thrown into the "manipulated red feather" bit just like Shin. The present arc may be different now, but some things don't change that easily it seems.kk1 wrote:You know what I just thought of, with how Oh Great! likes to repeat stuff and the theme of Maya is repeating her mistake with Shin with Nagi now. Shin had the eyepatch now Nagi after losing an eye (if he gets rescued) will have to wear one(like his mom too). I wonder if his will have a swaztika on it too?