Election Tournament

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Election Tournament

Post by kk1 »

What do you think it will be like (if we ever get to see it :wink: )? Going through the older volumes we've pretty much already seen the matchups of the Jyukenbu vs both the Enforcement Group and "F", and even some of the Enforcement Group vs "F" and "F" vs "F". So I'm thinking Oh Great isn't going to just rehash the old fights but give us something completely new. Like Bob switching sides, Souhaku possessing somebody(probably Nagi) and participating. Shyoujyou and Kabane fighting and the other 25 super powered students who have been hinted at for a long time now. Considering half of "F" are dead or crippled the Jyukenbu aren't much better and the Enforcement Group isn't even in the same league compared to everyone else I don't see Oh Great has much of a choice.
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Post by MrProphet »

Well, technically, the Election Tournament is held with just that purpose: election. The point is that Todou students fight for the right to become the enforcement group. Maya's added qualification that this particular election Tournament will also unofficially be a place for her and Mitsuomi to settle old grudges was purely off the record and coincidential.

F, Souhaku and other Red Feather bullshit doesn't really come into play with the Tournament itself.

As to what I foresee happening... Let's say the Tournament is in fact taking place (which I am not taking for granted, with Oh! Great's meandering storyline and all). For the original plan to happen, several things need to be addressed.

1) Jyuukenbu has only Masataka, Asshat, Bob and Kurei officially training. That's short of the needed amount of people. So, unless Maya and Aya do come about (which is far from certain), or maybe Bunshichi acts as a substitute, Jyuukenbu can't even participate.

2) The Enforcement Group is short of members as well. Apart from Mitsuomi, only Emi is on active duty, while Ryuuzaki, Sagara and Tagami are either hospitalized or incommunicado. I think Mitsoumi's plan was to bring F, but even if he managed to cover up the fact that F are not Todou students, Mitsuomi still has manpower problems.

Mitsuomi + Isuzu + Tessen + Madoka is nowhere near enough people. Once again, Tawara could prove to be the swing vote here.

So, let's say that these issues somehow sort themselves out and Jyuukenbu and Enforcement Group do find themselves participating in the Election Tournament. I somehow do not forsee Souhaku intervening directly, but it is possible that Kago will be able to participate as Souichirou and fuck stuff up for everyone at the most unopportune moment. However, that would imply that Souhaku somehow must intervene in the Tournament, for which I see no reason.

1) Why would Souhaku care who rules Todou? His deal is with the Red Feathers, not Todou itself.

2) Why would Jyuukenbu even participate in the Tournament when Maya is on her deathbed? Maya was the engine behind the idea that Jyuukenbu must win, without her the fight loses any meaning.

The problem with the Election Tournament storyline was that it was consieved at the time when Souhaku, Red Feathers and other mystical Takayanagi stuff was not even introduced, so the Tournament was needed to solve issues between Maya and Mitsuomi in some spectacularily romantic and dramatic fashion.

Now that Oh! Great has commited himself to the Kago storyline, I just don't see a necessity for a Tournament to take place. It won't solve anything with the story by itself. It can serve as a backdrop for everyone's struggle against Kago, but it's as good as any stage. The Tournament has already lost its significance to the story because the story evolved in a totally different direction. So, I won't mind if Oh! Great actually remembers that he planned it and somehow uses it with the rest of the plot, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary anymore to hold the Election Tournament.
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Post by kk1 »

I think you have grossly underestimated Oh Great and his preplanning this story. The way I see it he has perfectly brought the 2 storylines together so that everything can come together at the election tournament. There have been small subtle hints but they are there. All the people with latent powers gathered at Toudou. Makiko and Dougen(and the other generals) woring together to get Nagi to open his gate. Souhaku wanting the chip Dougen finally revealing the chip has the data for how red feather powers work and his experimant to awaken powers all over the world with a resonance effect, and that Toudou was just the place he chose to conduct his experiments. Souhaku wanting to make sure he was ready for the tournament, Inue saying everything has gone according to plan. How they figured out that Shin and Mitsuomi knew all this and were in on it together. OG hasn't abandoned or changed the original story he's just revealed what was really behind it all and it's all coming together.

It's unfortunate to see readers give up on or get disgusted with the "changes" to the plot of this book, OG's kinda undermined himself with emphasizing the T&A at the beginning, because I think it's just amazing.
MrProphet wrote: F, Souhaku and other Red Feather bullshit doesn't really come into play with the Tournament itself.
Read fight 88 again.
MrProphet wrote: Jyuukenbu has only Masataka, Asshat, Bob and Kurei officially training. The Enforcement Group is short of members as wellMitsuomi + Isuzu + Tessen + Madoka is nowhere near enough people. Once again, Tawara could prove to be the swing vote here.
Aya's fine so is Tagami, that's 5 unless Bob switches. Bunshichi is definately going to do something though,though this is why I suggested new chracters will be participating.

MrProphet wrote:1) Why would Souhaku care who rules Todou? His deal is with the Red Feathers, not Todou itself.
Because Toudou is just an experiment created by Dougen using red feathers, remeber in the flashback when he tried to feed Shin to Makiko how he said he hated amateurs playing with red feathers.
MrProphet wrote: 2) Why would Jyuukenbu even participate in the Tournament when Maya is on her deathbed? Maya was the engine behind the idea that Jyuukenbu must win, without her the fight loses any meaning.
That I have no idea, I really don't see Maya dying though.
MrProphet wrote:The problem with the Election Tournament storyline was that it was consieved at the time when Souhaku, Red Feathers and other mystical Takayanagi stuff was not even introduced, so the Tournament was needed to solve issues between Maya and Mitsuomi in some spectacularily romantic and dramatic fashion.
Was it? Or is that what we just all thought? It seems to me that OG already played out that storyline with the Shin flashback, this one had to be about something different.
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Post by MrProphet »

kk1 wrote:OG hasn't abandoned or changed the original story he's just revealed what was really behind it all and it's all coming together.
I am not saying that he abandoned the Election Tournament story.

What I am saying is that since the time when the Tournament was set up, a lot of new story has been uncovered. More important storylines have superceded it and the Tournament has comparatively paled in significance with all the other details that surfaced later on.

The Tournament may in fact take place eventually. However, the original meaning of the Tournament as the place for Enforcement Group and Jyuukenbu, and for Mitsuomi and Maya to settle their differences is no longer something that is feasible. I don't believe that either of them, knowing about Souhaku and his plans for Red Feathers, will waste time on settling scores between themselves.

So, in fact the Tournament has transformed itself from a stage for Maya and Mitsuomi into a stage for Souhaku's fight against everyone else.

Oh! Great's greatest problem is pacing. For a long-running manga like Tenjou Tenge, the pacing has been terrible. It all began with the Past Arc throwing the present storylines off balance. When that was concluded and it looked like the present story was running full steam, Oh! Great once again went on a tangent with the exploration of F, and then again into the Ancient Arc.

And I am not saying that the Past Arc, Kyuushuu arc, F, Souhaku's mansion and the Ancient Arc were not necessary. However, it is obvious to me that the pacing of the story, the manner in which those mini-arcs were presented and intersperced with the main story in fact has invalidated the significance of the main story.

The story between Maya, Nagi, Mitsuomi, Aya and Masataka no longer matters as much as it did because the F, Red Feathers and Souhaku have had such a strong presense lately.

That's Oh! Great's main problem: he focuses so much attention of a small portion of his story that the overreaching plot is no longer coherent. So much stuff got intruduced between Volume 8 (Jyuukenbu starts preparing for the Tournament) and Volume 15 that the Tournament is no longer the most important thing it was touted to be. Imagine that: almost 2/3 of the manga is dedicated to backstory and introductions, not to the main plot! That's just not the way to go.

I still love Tenjou Tenge, but to me it is also obvious that Oh! Great sometimes fails to see the forest behind the trees.
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Post by Pode777 »

Amen to that, MrProphet!
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Post by kk1 »

MrProphet wrote: That's Oh! Great's main problem: he focuses so much attention of a small portion of his story that the overreaching plot is no longer coherent. So much stuff got intruduced between Volume 8 (Jyuukenbu starts preparing for the Tournament) and Volume 15 that the Tournament is no longer the most important thing it was touted to be. Imagine that: almost 2/3 of the manga is dedicated to backstory and introductions, not to the main plot! That's just not the way to go.

I still love Tenjou Tenge, but to me it is also obvious that Oh! Great sometimes fails to see the forest behind the trees.
Ahh but that wasn't the main story, you have to look at TT like (horrible analogy but bear with me) an onion where you were presented with the outer layer at the beginning and ever since you've slowly had the outer layers stripped away until you reach the center.
MrProphet wrote: The Tournament may in fact take place eventually. However, the original meaning of the Tournament as the place for Enforcement Group and Jyuukenbu, and for Mitsuomi and Maya to settle their differences is no longer something that is feasible. I don't believe that either of them, knowing about Souhaku and his plans for Red Feathers, will waste time on settling scores between themselves.

So, in fact the Tournament has transformed itself from a stage for Maya and Mitsuomi into a stage for Souhaku's fight against everyone else.
Dougen and Makiko were introduced way back in vol 4 (vol 2 for Makiko if you count Aya's dragon eye vision of her) even the very first pages of volume one call the school a paradise with the kanji for "civil war", so this was about more than a school fight between Maya and Mitsuomi(and involved Souhaku) a long time ago. And in the UJ special OG says the book isn't about the development of the characters as they improve their fighting skills(to eventually meet later and settle scores by seeing whose strongest) but was influenced by the Kojiki and Nihonshoki and myths about Susano. He even said he looked to the myths about how to drop little hints about forshadowing how things are connected when you get the whole picture. Remeber when Masatka fought Nagi in the first volume and as Aya saw him falling she also saw her brother's face behind him?
I mean the first flashback ended in fight 46 the election tornament was only decided upon as the place to finish everything in fight 47 and "F" was introduced in fight 51 along with Nagi first using the dragon fist all in volume 8! I don't see how you can say the election tournament was the main plot. It was only introduced into the story as recently as everything else, later than some stuff if you think about it.
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Post by kujoe »

kk1 wrote:And in the UJ special OG says the book isn't about the development of the characters as they improve their fighting skills(to eventually meet later and settle scores by seeing whose strongest) but was influenced by the Kojiki and Nihonshoki and myths about Susano.
True. But doesn't Oh! Great also mention that the theme of strength—to become stronger and what strength is—is also part of the overall story?

As for the Tournament, I kinda agree with MrProphet. In fact, I believe it's actually possible that the manga ends when it's just about to begin. Characters are saved, possibly some have died but the conflicts of the story have finally been resolved—and then, the fighting paradise returns! Now, let's start the Election Tournament! Let's start training again everyone!

Seriously though, with the way things are right now, I wouldn't be surprised if the Election Tournament loses its significance.
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Post by kk1 »

kujoe wrote:
kk1 wrote:And in the UJ special OG says the book isn't about the development of the characters as they improve their fighting skills(to eventually meet later and settle scores by seeing whose strongest) but was influenced by the Kojiki and Nihonshoki and myths about Susano.
True. But doesn't Oh! Great also mention that the theme of strength—to become stronger and what strength is—is also part of the overall story?
Yes, but he said it was more of a mental strength, overcoming ones own fear the real fight is the fight with yourself, etc.

kujoe wrote: As for the Tournament, I kinda agree with MrProphet. In fact, I believe it's actually possible that the manga ends when it's just about to begin. Characters are saved, possibly some have died but the conflicts of the story have finally been resolved—and then, the fighting paradise returns! Now, let's start the Election Tournament! Let's start training again everyone!
Hmm interesting but I really don't see that.
kujoe wrote: Seriously though, with the way things are right now, I wouldn't be surprised if the Election Tournament loses its significance.
I don't think it was as siognificant as alot of people thought to begin with. Loook at the election tournament of the Shin flahback, if it wasn't for Dougen screwing around it really wouldn't have been a big deal at all.
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Post by kujoe »

kk1 wrote:Yes, but he said it was more of a mental strength, overcoming ones own fear the real fight is the fight with yourself, etc.
Perhaps that's the answer the author will be going for, but what I meant is that the nature of "true strength" itself is one of the recurring themes in the story. It seems to be an issue between physical strength and mental strength. Some characters have asked this question once or twice, and it's not something that has exactly been already answered in the manga. But yes, it does seem that mental strength becomes more important in most fights in the end.
kk1 wrote:Hmm interesting but I really don't see that.
Yeah, I was just kidding about it. Still, I wouldn't be surprised.
kk1 wrote:I don't think it was as siognificant as alot of people thought to begin with. Loook at the election tournament of the Shin flahback, if it wasn't for Dougen screwing around it really wouldn't have been a big deal at all.
I don't get it. If it's an important foreshadowed event due to prior twists and turns as you yourself seem to imply, then of course it's significant in some way. But with the big picture becoming even bigger, then maybe it could be easily be skipped or further postponed for something else down the road.

I guess this is due to the past arc. We all assumed that the Election Tournament of back then is going to happen again someday, but the manga has gone beyond that and thickened the overall story. The Election Tournament, as we used to know it, may turn out to be something else entirely.
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Post by kk1 »

kujoe wrote:
kk1 wrote:I don't think it was as siognificant as alot of people thought to begin with. Loook at the election tournament of the Shin flahback, if it wasn't for Dougen screwing around it really wouldn't have been a big deal at all.
I don't get it. If it's an important foreshadowed event due to prior twists and turns as you yourself seem to imply, then of course it's significant in some way. But with the big picture becoming even bigger, then maybe it could be easily be skipped or further postponed for something else down the road.

I guess this is due to the past arc. We all assumed that the Election Tournament of back then is going to happen again someday, but the manga has gone beyond that and thickened the overall story. The Election Tournament, as we used to know it, may turn out to be something else entirely.
That was my original question for this thread, we already got the romantic ending to the tournament with Shin and Mana dying in each others arms, so I just think OG is going to give us something completely different this time.
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Post by MrProphet »

However, seeing how many of the present characters are similar to the characters from the past, I wouldn't be surprised if Oh! Great went for some inverse mirror ending.

Or, at least, some kind of an allusion to "the more things change, the more they stay the same". God knows he used that allusion with his characters (especially Souichirou) before.
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