Fight 97

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Post by shouki » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:51 am

kk1 wrote:I think with the leather, smoking and speech I think she's trying to convey the tough girl image, what's the word "sukeban"?
Well, if she's carrying a large yo-yo in that long bag of hers :wink:

If she was going all-out, she could use "atai" instead of "atashi"... Well, use of "atai" is extremely rare in manga/anime. (atai is like the female equivalent of "ore" for guys... except thousands of times rarer in practice).

I've no idea if she's deliberately trying for the tough girl image, or whether she developed it naturally after immitating guys a lot. But, it's nice. (Can she even immitate guys though? We never saw the ancient Shoujou immitate girls, so it could be limited to the same gender they were born as...)

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Post by shouki » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:54 am

kk1 wrote:The latter obviously, it fell off the roof and we neversee it again. Since we thought they would need it for Souhaku(and that's who some thought spirit Aya was) I just figured we see more about it, specifically why Souhaku fears it.
Maybe the next chapter will start with a flashback to the "ghost" saying bye... or assimilating with Aya... or something.

Though... does anyone apart from Souhaku know that Souhaku is nervous around Reiki? We never got to see Reiki and Souhaku in the same room in the ancient arc after all... Maybe it's something Aya will have to discover or deduce by herself?

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Post by kk1 » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:00 am

shouki wrote:
kk1 wrote:The latter obviously, it fell off the roof and we neversee it again. Since we thought they would need it for Souhaku(and that's who some thought spirit Aya was) I just figured we see more about it, specifically why Souhaku fears it.
Maybe the next chapter will start with a flashback to the "ghost" saying bye... or assimilating with Aya... or something.

Though... does anyone apart from Souhaku know that Souhaku is nervous around Reiki? We never got to see Reiki and Souhaku in the same room in the ancient arc after all... Maybe it's something Aya will have to discover or deduce by herself?
I assume Makiko is the one who told Maya about it, and so maybe she's told others too, or they already know. I doubt they wouldn't pass on information like that to each succeeding generation, since no one likes Souhaku (how the hell does Makiko hook up with him anyway?)

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Post by shouki » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:46 am

kk1 wrote:
shouki wrote:Though... does anyone apart from Souhaku know that Souhaku is nervous around Reiki? We never got to see Reiki and Souhaku in the same room in the ancient arc after all... Maybe it's something Aya will have to discover or deduce by herself?
I assume Makiko is the one who told Maya about it, and so maybe she's told others too, or they already know. I doubt they wouldn't pass on information like that to each succeeding generation, since no one likes Souhaku (how the hell does Makiko hook up with him anyway?)
Told Maya what exactly? Are you refering to when Maya was trying to take Reiki to the others just before she collapsed - what she said/thought then? Basically, that maybe only Reiki is capable of finishing off Souhaku? If so, why did Maya let the others go ahead before fighting Tetsuhito? It would have been a waste of time to make them face Souhaku without Reiki. It's possible that only after fully activating Reiki that Maya understood...

After all, when she told them to go get Souhaku - she said only they'd be able to do it. But, if she knew at the time that Reiki was needed, why did she say that?

So maybe this is the case: Maya realised just before collapsing that Reiki was necessary to kill Souhaku. Apart from that, perhaps only Souhaku knows how dangerous Reiki is to him.

And why would Makiko know that Reiki would be needed to defeat Souhaku? Nobody in the ancient arc seems to know this. I don't remember Makiko commenting or suggesting that Reiki was vital in such a way...


Anyway... Assuming Aya will need to fight Souchirou (or rather, the Souhaku parasite in him), from a story/character development point of view it could be better for Aya to start the fight without a certain idea on how to win. I'd prefer to see Aya take on Sohaku and win without being spoon-fed a victory plan by others.

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Post by shouki » Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:33 am

Little FYI. On page 2, Souhaku mentioned "Sakoku". Read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku

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Post by shouki » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:30 pm

kk1 wrote:
shouki wrote:It seems a bit of a surprise that Souichirou's mother doesn't seem to have inherited Ichiyou's determination for revenge (and completing his mission). I'd be surprised if she didn't know about it... maybe she found out too late? Maybe the Nagi family got seperated a bit, or had similar problems to the current Natsume, and didn't get an "update" from Takayanagi until too late?
Seems Souhaku got to her early and she didn't start "cleansing demons" until after he cut off her arm.
I wonder how much was known about Tetsuhito in the last few hundred years. Makiko had no idea that he was invulnerable to iron before having her eye pulled.

Hmm. I wonder if Dougen wanted to create the "ultimate warrior" to kill Souhaku...?

kk1 wrote:
shouki wrote:The overall story seems to be:
initial arc (individuals with individual reason), past arc explaining the background, current arc sort-of joins up with "ancient history", ancient arc explaining the background, then final arc (just starting). I'd imagine first the "ancient history" will be cleared and then it'll be time to settle the individual differences... (ie election tournament).
Well final arc makes more sense, seems weird though that this will end sooner than later.
Well... it's not like the story could reasonably expand in scope much more I think. With Souhaku the "power behind the throne" as it were for several hundred years... I don't think there'd be much point in trying to make the story more complex - we'll probably get few if any major characters from now on. Hirohiko and Mitsuiro might be the last to get a "full screen" introduction...

Talking of "power behind the throne", I wonder what he was up to during the Bakumatsu? (the end of the Shogunate basically):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Tokugawa_shogunate

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Post by kk1 » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:10 pm

shouki wrote:
kk1 wrote:
shouki wrote:Though... does anyone apart from Souhaku know that Souhaku is nervous around Reiki? We never got to see Reiki and Souhaku in the same room in the ancient arc after all... Maybe it's something Aya will have to discover or deduce by herself?
I assume Makiko is the one who told Maya about it, and so maybe she's told others too, or they already know. I doubt they wouldn't pass on information like that to each succeeding generation, since no one likes Souhaku (how the hell does Makiko hook up with him anyway?)
Told Maya what exactly? Are you refering to when Maya was trying to take Reiki to the others just before she collapsed - what she said/thought then? Basically, that maybe only Reiki is capable of finishing off Souhaku? If so, why did Maya let the others go ahead before fighting Tetsuhito? It would have been a waste of time to make them face Souhaku without Reiki. It's possible that only after fully activating Reiki that Maya understood...

After all, when she told them to go get Souhaku - she said only they'd be able to do it. But, if she knew at the time that Reiki was needed, why did she say that?

So maybe this is the case: Maya realised just before collapsing that Reiki was necessary to kill Souhaku. Apart from that, perhaps only Souhaku knows how dangerous Reiki is to him.

And why would Makiko know that Reiki would be needed to defeat Souhaku? Nobody in the ancient arc seems to know this. I don't remember Makiko commenting or suggesting that Reiki was vital in such a way...

.
Hmm yeah that was strange, Maya did seem to stay behind because she knew only she could beat Tets(or thought she had a chance) and seemed surprised when he said he was just keeping Reiki away, though she did say thats he knew he and Souhaku were afraid of it. Hmm?

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Post by Mataza-kun » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:25 pm

Uhm, they didn't introduce themselves as F members, and since they said they're here to finish the work of their ancestors...
can we expect them to be on Aya's side against Souhaku?
Actually, originally I assumed all the red feathers to be on Souhaku's side as well, but from the flashback it seems like he's everyone's enemy and just managed to "recruit" the latest white feathers family heads.

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Post by Hollowshingami » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:33 pm

They said they weren't Aya's enemies. So I have to think they would be on Aya's side. Or at the very least against Souhaku.

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Post by shouki » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:41 pm

kk1 wrote:Hmm yeah that was strange, Maya did seem to stay behind because she knew only she could beat Tets(or thought she had a chance) and seemed surprised when he said he was just keeping Reiki away, though she did say thats he knew he and Souhaku were afraid of it. Hmm?
Well, I guess it wouldn't be manga if it all made sense :roll:

Tetsuhito told her...? Hmm... *scans through vol 14*. Ah, so he did.

Well, sounds like my theory needs a slight adjustment, but sounds even more plausible - Maya did not fully realise just how critical Reiki was until her fight with Tetsuhito. ie, nobody told her, and probably nobody else knew apart from Souhaku, Tetsuhito and ugly bitch. Which is why Maya was trying so hard to bring Reiki to the others afterwards.

Did Maya manage to tell Aya about it? If not, then Aya would have to guess that she'd *have* to use Reiki. Even if Maya managed to tell Aya that Reiki was critical, then Aya would still have to figure out how... (anyway, it explains why we got no further info on Reiki in the ancient arc - they didn't know either)


Incidentally, while glancing through v14, I noticed in some of the extra bits that Makiko says her father died a long time ago. So it's quite possible she grew up fairly ignorant about the centuaries long war.

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Post by shouki » Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:03 pm

Hollowshingami wrote:They said they weren't Aya's enemies. So I have to think they would be on Aya's side. Or at the very least against Souhaku.
I wouldn't normally pre-empt Fugu but since it's rather important (and there's not too many kanji to look up) - starting from the bottom of page 21, Mitsuiro says: Don't worry. We're not your "enemy".

On page 22, they introduce themselves. Aya recognises the family names of course and says "You are...!!".

Then one of them says: The two of us only just came to this school today you see - yoroshiku. The "war" our ancestors' team left unfinished... let's end it once and for all eh.

"yoroshiku" can mean many things - in this sense, the most likely are "pleased to meet you" or (in particular) "looking forward to working with you". The kanji for "war" actually spells "duty" (or mission) instead.

I guess you could say this is the real meaning of the "centuaries long war" (aka "100 years war") - waiting for the chance to finish off Souhaku.

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Post by Ricco » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:41 pm

I just noticed something huge, the time frame is different! I went back and checked when Kabane said to write "meat" on Aya's forehead, it was page 07 of chapter 87, before Maya collapsed and before Souhaku is killed. When Aya wakes up she hears Kabane say that they should write "meat" on her forehead, ergo what happened after that was what she saw thanks to the Dragon's eye(the futur). Meaning everything that happened after that can be changed, if Aya can get a message to Nagi and company Maya can be saved and Inue's/Souhaku's plan goes up in smoke.
"Heartless angel or soulles demon NOTHING will stand in my way!"

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Post by Hollowshingami » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:03 am

It's possible, I guess. If that was the case then the flashback and the events she saw after Maya's collapse in the present , so to speak, happened in an instant. I can't even remember what chapter it was when those two first showed up.

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Post by kk1 » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:44 am

Ricco wrote:I just noticed something huge, the time frame is different! I went back and checked when Kabane said to write "meat" on Aya's forehead, it was page 07 of chapter 87, before Maya collapsed and before Souhaku is killed. When Aya wakes up she hears Kabane say that they should write "meat" on her forehead, ergo what happened after that was what she saw thanks to the Dragon's eye(the futur). Meaning everything that happened after that can be changed, if Aya can get a message to Nagi and company Maya can be saved and Inue's/Souhaku's plan goes up in smoke.
I thought last chaptet ghost Aya said to Aya you can use the dragon eye to see the past and present at the same time, meaning Nagi getting his eye poked out was the present. Though you're right if that's the same reference to "meat" because they do say stuff after that they don't say here.

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Post by kk1 » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:52 am

shouki wrote:
kk1 wrote:Hmm yeah that was strange, Maya did seem to stay behind because she knew only she could beat Tets(or thought she had a chance) and seemed surprised when he said he was just keeping Reiki away, though she did say thats he knew he and Souhaku were afraid of it. Hmm?
Well, I guess it wouldn't be manga if it all made sense :roll:

Tetsuhito told her...? Hmm... *scans through vol 14*. Ah, so he did.

Well, sounds like my theory needs a slight adjustment, but sounds even more plausible - Maya did not fully realise just how critical Reiki was until her fight with Tetsuhito. ie, nobody told her, and probably nobody else knew apart from Souhaku, Tetsuhito and ugly bitch. Which is why Maya was trying so hard to bring Reiki to the others afterwards.

Did Maya manage to tell Aya about it? If not, then Aya would have to guess that she'd *have* to use Reiki. Even if Maya managed to tell Aya that Reiki was critical, then Aya would still have to figure out how... (anyway, it explains why we got no further info on Reiki in the ancient arc - they didn't know either)
I don't think Maya realized how important Reiki was until Aya activated it and she saw that's the only way she could use it against Tetsuhito, remember how surprised she was when she couldn't cut his head off the first time. She would have beat Tetsuhito if he wasn't resistant to metal.
shouki wrote: Incidentally, while glancing through v14, I noticed in some of the extra bits that Makiko says her father died a long time ago. So it's quite possible she grew up fairly ignorant about the centuaries long war.
Any chance you could translate that extra stuff from 14 Fugu hasn't translated yet? He's so busy he barely has time time to do the regular chapters, I don't think he'll ever get back to it, there's a thread with the exact pages that have extra stuff. I'll beg if it will help :D

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Post by kk1 » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:58 am

shouki wrote: Well... it's not like the story could reasonably expand in scope much more I think. With Souhaku the "power behind the throne" as it were for several hundred years... I don't think there'd be much point in trying to make the story more complex - we'll probably get few if any major characters from now on. Hirohiko and Mitsuiro might be the last to get a "full screen" introduction...

Talking of "power behind the throne", I wonder what he was up to during the Bakumatsu? (the end of the Shogunate basically):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Tokugawa_shogunate
Actually I was thinking that myself, if he was responsible for all the war during that earlier era what about then, there was alot of fighting before the Meiji restoration, and how about WW2? OG could probably go on forever with flashbacks to past eras and how Souhaku fought each successive generation (which actually sounds pretty cool). I'm actually really curious how he went from being so powerful to what seems like a small fry punk when he was married to Makiko, and how the Nagi's became so hated? Seems like everyone would like them for getting rid of Souhaku's goons.

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Post by shouki » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:49 am

Ricco wrote:I just noticed something huge, the time frame is different! I went back and checked when Kabane said to write "meat" on Aya's forehead, it was page 07 of chapter 87, before Maya collapsed and before Souhaku is killed. When Aya wakes up she hears Kabane say that they should write "meat" on her forehead, ergo what happened after that was what she saw thanks to the Dragon's eye(the futur). Meaning everything that happened after that can be changed, if Aya can get a message to Nagi and company Maya can be saved and Inue's/Souhaku's plan goes up in smoke.
Actually, the last thing Aya "hears" on the black page is Hirohiko saying: It smells like "death"

That was the last thing we saw from those two until the current chapter. Aya wakes up thinking "death!?"

Exactly how much time has passed since Hirohiko saying that and Aya waking up is hard to determine. The maximum possible would not be much much since it's still evening.
Last edited by shouki on Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by shouki » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:51 am

kk1 wrote:Any chance you could translate that extra stuff from 14 Fugu hasn't translated yet? He's so busy he barely has time time to do the regular chapters, I don't think he'll ever get back to it, there's a thread with the exact pages that have extra stuff. I'll beg if it will help :D
Too many kanji to lookup unfortunately. It'd take me forever...


Additional Fugu includes the kanji in his translations, so I can just copy and paste them into edict:
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/c ... wwwjdic?9T
(though edict isn't good enough for everything)

I've done little formal Japanese studying. I've almost never tried to memorise kanji (don't really have the time), so I've only ever translated manga with furigana for all/most of the kanji. I've picked up kanji slowly over time by doing so much translating (and reading in general)...

Almost all the Japanese I encounter is in manga and anime. I almost never get a chance to speak or write it (though I can do it a bit). Real spoken Japanese is a lot harder however (or rather, I'm much less used to it) - I'm probably better at handling 16th centuary Japanese (as it appears in manga/anime) than true spoken Japanese - for example, I've sometimes translated interviews with manga authors or similar, and they're generally a transcript of a spoken interview, but I find them very hard to handle.

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Post by kk1 » Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:01 pm

shouki wrote: Anyway... Assuming Aya will need to fight Souchirou (or rather, the Souhaku parasite in him), from a story/character development point of view it could be better for Aya to start the fight without a certain idea on how to win. I'd prefer to see Aya take on Sohaku and win without being spoon-fed a victory plan by others.
Actually ghost Aya tells her before the past arc starts, that not only will they become one but that they will become the "katana" for the person who will break the chains of fate (a fate she just mentioned was set out by Souhaku).

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Post by shouki » Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:53 am

kk1 wrote:Actually ghost Aya tells her before the past arc starts, that not only will they become one but that they will become the "katana" for the person who will break the chains of fate (a fate she just mentioned was set out by Souhaku).
I wonder if this merging has happened yet. No indication so far (eg on Aya's personality).

You'd think Aya has now gotten what the ghost wanted to tell her, so based on that quote above, you'd think they'd have merged by now. I wonder just how dramatic this "become one" will be. Would it affect her usage of the Dragon Eye and other skills or was it simply a transfer of historical knowledge...?

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Post by FuguTabetai » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:37 pm

Finally finished my translation. An interesting chapter. Looks like this will be the last crazy flashback sequence we have to go through.

I hope the upcoming story shows us more of Masataka and Bob (two of my favorite characters.)

Any comments on my translation are welcome.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:57 am


"Swallow your food whole, fool! Do you not know that mastication makes you go blind?"

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Post by MrProphet » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:00 pm

Other than what Agent_Wax has mentioned, the rest seemed fairly well translated.

A lot of the Ancient Arc text is very confusing to read, so maybe it's bad translation or maybe it's just the original language being so confusing and flowery, I wouldn't be able to judge.

Personally, I am sattisfied with it, so thanks a lot Fugu. 8)

And I want them to get back to Masa and Bob as well. And Isuzu. And Tawara... C'mon, sensei!

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Post by FuguTabetai » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:50 pm



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Post by shouki » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:04 am

I've got some other things to do, so here's just some brief comments for now...

The text on the black page is hard to read but fortunately it's a repeat of what Hirohiko and Mitsuiro in the previous chapters they appeared in. I wrote this a couple of replies up the thread...

Also, did you see my reference to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku
(country isolation)

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