Air Tiger Hidden Spirits Dragon

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Air Tiger Hidden Spirits Dragon

Post by Panda Style » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:12 pm

This has been pissing me off ever since Makiko named the seven chakras in the human body. Each gate is supposed control a specific element (earth, water, wind, fire, wood, metal and air), right? Well, what the heck is air supposed to be? Technically, air should be in wind's spot and that got me thinking that maybe the term air wasn't meant to be taken literally and was probably closer to something along the lines of ether/akasha/void. This got me to thinking just what power the Air Tiger Hidden Spirits Dragon was supposed to unleash. After some looking and reading, I've come to two conclusions and two possible (albeit extremely unlikely) users of the ATHSD.

The first is Masataka. I know, I know, if this was true, Oh Great! would have said something by now but I'll present the case anyhow. First, Sahasrara (ATHSD's tantric name) is the chakra that governs the central nervous system, the other six chakras and connects a person with the divine and pretty much the rest of the universe for that matter. Masataka practices the Mental Universe style, whose name is coincidentally similar to the principles of the Sahasrara. Second, Masataka has, on at least one occasion, displayed abilities that would likely link him with the air element if air was meant to be taken as ether. He has the ability to pass his ki through a physical body without actually affecting it. He did this when he pushed his ki through Bob's body to strike Madoka when he joined the Emi and Bob in their fight against her. It may have been possible he did this by passing his ki through the space between molecules, explaining how Bob was unharmed. A third conenction comes in the shaping of the White Feather families. Including the Takayanagi, there are seven White Feather Families, one for each chakra. This is a flimsy connection at best so I wouldn't take it too seriously.

The second possibility is that Kurei has activated the ATHSD. His specialty is creating a flash of light to blind unsuspecting foes. Now, if you look at the actual meaning of ether and Akasha, you would find that literally means "burning light" or something close to that. In Greek Mythology, Ether was the god of the third layer of air and was a shining blue light which all the gods breathed (aka the sky). However, this seems to be a plainly wrong theory as Oh Great! would be highly unlikely to give such a dragon gate to a comic relief character like Kurei, especially considering his regret over giving the fire element to Ryuuzaki.

Those are my theories. If anyone has a better idea on what the ATHSD does, for the love of god, educate me.

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Post by kk1 » Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:31 pm

Well its also been translated as "sky" and its just what the person using it has to be in contact with to open the gate(since that's where the "dragon" is). So I could see it as seperate from wind, which we've seen used by Kamura and it's not Kurei that flash thing wasn't real they were just a car's headlights.

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Post by kujoe » Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:27 pm

That thing that Masataka did where he was able to attack Madoka from behind Bob is actually quite typical of popular martial arts fiction. It's like all that talk of "striking without touching," and from a distance. If I remember correctly, you see Soucihirou do something similar when he was punching those frying pans, way back when Maya was training him for the first time.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:43 am

Kujoe wrote:
That thing that Masataka did where he was able to attack Madoka from behind Bob is actually quite typical of popular martial arts fiction. It's like all that talk of "striking without touching," and from a distance. If I remember correctly, you see Soucihirou do something similar when he was punching those frying pans, way back when Maya was training him for the first time.
Isn't that the Forged Needle? It's just a transferring of ki / energy through a distance. Soichirou & Maya used it against those machine-gun Miko as well.
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Post by kujoe » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:05 am

Well, I did say "something similar..." I thought what Souichirou did back then was the Forged Needle too, or at least a beginner's version of it, but I was trying to say that what Masataka did was somewhat similar to that with regard to the idea of "hitting from a distance, using ki from afar, etc." which is a popular notion in a lot of stories such as this. Even Mitsuomi does something similar in the past arc, where he strikes the phoenix structure behind Dougen's head from afar.

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Post by Iromaru » Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:37 am

I think that Masataka just used reverse striking against Madoka, that's the simpliest answer. I also think that Masataka has the Wood Dragon gate becouse he used his ki to harden wooden chopstick to block Souichirou's attack.

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Post by Panda Style » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:14 pm

Yeah. Masataka probably hasn't activated a Dragon Gate yet. Reading everything through again and reading up on eastern mythology again, I expect the Flying Tiger Hidded Spirits Dragon's power to be related to light now. One, pretty much every other possibility has been done already and two, light seems to be pretty important in Japanese mythology. Two of the three major dieties in Shintoism are related to light (Ameratsu, sun goddess, and Tsukiyomi, moon god). Also, I think the translation of the FTHSD's element as sky is suited better as the three major Shinto dieties are all sky gods and seeing as how Oh Great! loves history and mythology, it seems even more appropriate. I also completely forgot that Kurei used headlights.

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Post by kk1 » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:06 am

Your question got me thinking about Aya, I used to think her dragon was water because it rains when she uses the dragon eye alot(Shin too) but when I look at the start of vol 14 when she uses the dragon eye we see her dragon reflected on the floor and then come down from above and turn into a reflection of her(remeber when we saw Nagi's dragon it came up out of the ground). Maybe her's is the sky dragon that also would explain the rain, her dragon is in the sky making it rain from the sky :D

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Post by Iromaru » Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:30 pm

I started to wonder is it even possible for somebody other than Nagi clan members to invoke more then one dragon? I mean Aya already invoked Dragon's Eye dragon so I wonder if she can even had one of the 7 normal dragons? Up til now everybody except Souichirou and Tetsuhito was able to use only one dragon, so maybe 8th dragon also count as one and red feather's members can't use gates other than their's special gates?

PS: I'm not an native english speaker so I'm sorry if I made some mistakes.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:15 am

Iromaru wrote:I started to wonder is it even possible for somebody other than Nagi clan members to invoke more then one dragon? I mean Aya already invoked Dragon's Eye dragon so I wonder if she can even had one of the 7 normal dragons? Up til now everybody except Souichirou and Tetsuhito was able to use only one dragon, so maybe 8th dragon also count as one and red feather's members can't use gates other than their's special gates?

PS: I'm not an native english speaker so I'm sorry if I made some mistakes.
Makiko explained it that you invoke a dragon and then it leaves through a gate, so Nagi invoked the red belt earth dragon and its power (lightning)left through the gate in his fist, so Aya's power comes from a dragon whose power works in her eyes. Ishiyumi and other non red feathers just seem to be able to control the element of their dragon through it's own gate, like Fu had the same power as Nagi but didn't have a super powerful punch because he has no gate in his fist. Isiyumi could add ki to water because of the water dragon, Maya can add ki to "wood" like her tie when she fought Tetsuhito but none of them have the extra gate to use that dragon's power further. So there's only 7 dragons but 8 gates and the 8th gate is always different, fist, eye, claw,palm, tongue,pupil etc. Nagi can steal dragons and gates so he took Ishiyumi's dragon and was able to add ki to water(or blood in his case, it almost seems like he was using the water dragon's power through his 8th gate, since even Ishyumi noted he had perverted it, whether he can do that or not though I'm just speculating) and Mataza's gate and dragon. Tetsuhito got his from Makiko who stole them from everyone else. At least that's my interpretation of how it works.

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Post by DivineDragon » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:45 am

Where did you guys get Air Tiger Hidden Dragon? Did I miss something?

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Post by Iromaru » Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:52 pm

Check Volume 9 p.42 (Fight:53)

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Post by kujoe » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:20 pm

kk1 wrote:Makiko explained it that you invoke a dragon and then it leaves through a gate, so Nagi invoked the red belt earth dragon and its power (lightning)left through the gate in his fist, so Aya's power comes from a dragon whose power works in her eyes. Ishiyumi and other non red feathers just seem to be able to control the element of their dragon through it's own gate, like Fu had the same power as Nagi but didn't have a super powerful punch because he has no gate in his fist. Isiyumi could add ki to water because of the water dragon, Maya can add ki to "wood" like her tie when she fought Tetsuhito but none of them have the extra gate to use that dragon's power further. So there's only 7 dragons but 8 gates and the 8th gate is always different, fist, eye, claw,palm, tongue,pupil etc. Nagi can steal dragons and gates so he took Ishiyumi's dragon and was able to add ki to water(or blood in his case, it almost seems like he was using the water dragon's power through his 8th gate, since even Ishyumi noted he had perverted it, whether he can do that or not though I'm just speculating) and Mataza's gate and dragon. Tetsuhito got his from Makiko who stole them from everyone else. At least that's my interpretation of how it works.
Now you're starting to confuse me.

Aren't the 7 gates available to everyone? Meaning, for a normal, non-red feather martial artist all the 7 gates are attainable. Through training and experience, he or she can aim for any one of the seven. As a red feather however, not only is it possible for you to inherit your family's corresponding 8th gate, but all 7 gates are available to you as well. This would explain Nagi's use of the Dragon's Fist along with the Earth Gate. At least, this is the way I've understood it.

The Water Gate on the other hand, was something he stole from Ishiyumi. Moreover, it also seems that it's possible for Nagi to eat up 8th gates, judging by his fight with Mataza, and the fact that Souhaku had planned to "feed" Shin to Makiko (or was it Tetsuhito?) long time ago. I'm just not sure if it's possible for a person to open more than one normal gate, such as having both Water and Fire for example.

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Post by Vampire Advent » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:31 pm

kujoe wrote:
kk1 wrote:Makiko explained it that you invoke a dragon and then it leaves through a gate, so Nagi invoked the red belt earth dragon and its power (lightning)left through the gate in his fist, so Aya's power comes from a dragon whose power works in her eyes. Ishiyumi and other non red feathers just seem to be able to control the element of their dragon through it's own gate, like Fu had the same power as Nagi but didn't have a super powerful punch because he has no gate in his fist. Isiyumi could add ki to water because of the water dragon, Maya can add ki to "wood" like her tie when she fought Tetsuhito but none of them have the extra gate to use that dragon's power further. So there's only 7 dragons but 8 gates and the 8th gate is always different, fist, eye, claw,palm, tongue,pupil etc. Nagi can steal dragons and gates so he took Ishiyumi's dragon and was able to add ki to water(or blood in his case, it almost seems like he was using the water dragon's power through his 8th gate, since even Ishyumi noted he had perverted it, whether he can do that or not though I'm just speculating) and Mataza's gate and dragon. Tetsuhito got his from Makiko who stole them from everyone else. At least that's my interpretation of how it works.
Now you're starting to confuse me.

Aren't the 7 gates available to everyone? Meaning, for a normal, non-red feather martial artist all the 7 gates are attainable. Through training and experience, he or she can aim for any one of the seven. As a red feather however, not only is it possible for you to inherit your family's corresponding 8th gate, but all 7 gates are available to you as well. This would explain Nagi's use of the Dragon's Fist along with the Earth Gate. At least, this is the way I've understood it.

The Water Gate on the other hand, was something he stole from Ishiyumi. Moreover, it also seems that it's possible for Nagi to eat up 8th gates, judging by his fight with Mataza, and the fact that Souhaku had planned to "feed" Shin to Makiko (or was it Tetsuhito?) long time ago. I'm just not sure if it's possible for a person to open more than one normal gate, such as having both Water and Fire for example.
Yes the first seven gates are generic and can be attained by a well trained none red feather martial artist. The 8th one on the other hand ain't generic and can only be gotten by a few people mostly of red feather decent

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Post by kk1 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:39 am

kujoe wrote:
kk1 wrote:Makiko explained it that you invoke a dragon and then it leaves through a gate, so Nagi invoked the red belt earth dragon and its power (lightning)left through the gate in his fist, so Aya's power comes from a dragon whose power works in her eyes. Ishiyumi and other non red feathers just seem to be able to control the element of their dragon through it's own gate, like Fu had the same power as Nagi but didn't have a super powerful punch because he has no gate in his fist. Isiyumi could add ki to water because of the water dragon, Maya can add ki to "wood" like her tie when she fought Tetsuhito but none of them have the extra gate to use that dragon's power further. So there's only 7 dragons but 8 gates and the 8th gate is always different, fist, eye, claw,palm, tongue,pupil etc. Nagi can steal dragons and gates so he took Ishiyumi's dragon and was able to add ki to water(or blood in his case, it almost seems like he was using the water dragon's power through his 8th gate, since even Ishyumi noted he had perverted it, whether he can do that or not though I'm just speculating) and Mataza's gate and dragon. Tetsuhito got his from Makiko who stole them from everyone else. At least that's my interpretation of how it works.
Now you're starting to confuse me.

Aren't the 7 gates available to everyone? Meaning, for a normal, non-red feather martial artist all the 7 gates are attainable. Through training and experience, he or she can aim for any one of the seven. As a red feather however, not only is it possible for you to inherit your family's corresponding 8th gate, but all 7 gates are available to you as well. This would explain Nagi's use of the Dragon's Fist along with the Earth Gate. At least, this is the way I've understood it.

The Water Gate on the other hand, was something he stole from Ishiyumi. Moreover, it also seems that it's possible for Nagi to eat up 8th gates, judging by his fight with Mataza, and the fact that Souhaku had planned to "feed" Shin to Makiko (or was it Tetsuhito?) long time ago. I'm just not sure if it's possible for a person to open more than one normal gate, such as having both Water and Fire for example.
Don't worry it is confusing.
First, everyone has " 7 dragons" Fugu's translation says 7 dragons inside everyone, these correspond to the 7 chakra's from Hinduism (in fact even though Fugu translates it as "gate" the fuirgana above the kanji reads "chakra"). And while it would seem all are attainable for some reason OG has made everyone only able to use 1 except red feathers. Nagi opens the earth dragon gate but uses his own gate also. Also Kabuto metioned the "black" dragon eating the water dragon so I guess the dragon fist gate's dragon is a black dragon, so I'm guessing since only the Nagi family can eat other dragons the "black" dragon is unique to them. Though I don't see why he needs the red dragon in addition to it. I don't see why someone can't open more than one gate but so far all we've seen are kids with only enough time to learn to use and master one, maybe we'll eventually get to see someone with more than one. Altough they might be like theyre c talked about in the original texts where you have to make the energy rise until it reaches the chakra in the head, so each one is successively harder to use, which may be why Nagi opens the red dragon gate first, it's the easiest. And each successive dragon is harder? Or like is often shown each can only be opened when touching it's corresponding element (the gates use the 8th element whatever that is?) so since Nagi was touching the ground that's the only one he could open (though I guess he was touching air too) Interesting Nagi could use the water gate without touching water(the water in blood was enough) though Ishiyumi had to be touching it.

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Post by kujoe » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:47 pm

Personally, I think it's confusing to refer to the dragons/gates based on their so-called color, because all their names are too long and rather complicated. Earth, Water, etc. are fine for me especially when you're trying to differentiate them from the 8th gates and their corresponding dragons.

Anyway, about that part of the Black dragon being unique to the Nagi clan, didn't Fuu also use an Earth gate? That was his specialty as far as the 7 gates are concerned, so I doubt that it's unique only to them. Or are you referring to the dragon that was described by Makiko as the Dragon's Fist? I guess I'm asking for clarification regarding the Earth gate. It's not a Black dragon is it?

Also, I think you're only allowed one of the 7 gates. Or at the very least, it's been proven that that's the so-called limit that fighters all over have reached so far. I mean, what's so significant about Souichirou, Makiko and Kagiroi being multiple gate users then if it's possible to go wild with all seven? Moreover, we all know that Ishiyumi places his Water gate on top of a pedestal, thinking that it's like a precious part of himself, but even if Nagi stole that from him what's to stop him from attempting to open another one? Well, there's the factor of time I presume, but if it's possible to attain more than one gate, can he still open another Water gate?

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Post by kk1 » Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:09 am

kujoe wrote:Personally, I think it's confusing to refer to the dragons/gates based on their so-called color, because all their names are too long and rather complicated. Earth, Water, etc. are fine for me especially when you're trying to differentiate them from the 8th gates and their corresponding dragons.

Anyway, about that part of the Black dragon being unique to the Nagi clan, didn't Fuu also use an Earth gate? That was his specialty as far as the 7 gates are concerned, so I doubt that it's unique only to them. Or are you referring to the dragon that was described by Makiko as the Dragon's Fist? I guess I'm asking for clarification regarding the Earth gate. It's not a Black dragon is it?

Also, I think you're only allowed one of the 7 gates. Or at the very least, it's been proven that that's the so-called limit that fighters all over have reached so far. I mean, what's so significant about Souichirou, Makiko and Kagiroi being multiple gate users then if it's possible to go wild with all seven? Moreover, we all know that Ishiyumi places his Water gate on top of a pedestal, thinking that it's like a precious part of himself, but even if Nagi stole that from him what's to stop him from attempting to open another one? Well, there's the factor of time I presume, but if it's possible to attain more than one gate, can he still open another Water gate?
No it's the red dragon.
Maybe you can only open one at a time, so even if you learn to use them all 1 is your limit, plus some negate each other like when Ishiyumi lured Souichiro into the water so he could use his gate but Nagi couldn't. Something similar happened in the Tetsuhito Maya fight but the translation was weird. Maya said this power is "late" so it won't work in water, what does late mean?
My original theory was that any ordinary person can have any one of the 7 dragons but that's it and red feathers have one of the seven plus there own unique one. But really there's nothing in the books to support it either way. I remeber we debated this before, like what if Nagi eats someone elses power that has the earth gate does he then have 2? I really wish OG would clarify it.

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Post by BlackArtistik » Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:37 am

kk1 wrote:
kujoe wrote:Personally, I think it's confusing to refer to the dragons/gates based on their so-called color, because all their names are too long and rather complicated. Earth, Water, etc. are fine for me especially when you're trying to differentiate them from the 8th gates and their corresponding dragons.

Anyway, about that part of the Black dragon being unique to the Nagi clan, didn't Fuu also use an Earth gate? That was his specialty as far as the 7 gates are concerned, so I doubt that it's unique only to them. Or are you referring to the dragon that was described by Makiko as the Dragon's Fist? I guess I'm asking for clarification regarding the Earth gate. It's not a Black dragon is it?

Also, I think you're only allowed one of the 7 gates. Or at the very least, it's been proven that that's the so-called limit that fighters all over have reached so far. I mean, what's so significant about Souichirou, Makiko and Kagiroi being multiple gate users then if it's possible to go wild with all seven? Moreover, we all know that Ishiyumi places his Water gate on top of a pedestal, thinking that it's like a precious part of himself, but even if Nagi stole that from him what's to stop him from attempting to open another one? Well, there's the factor of time I presume, but if it's possible to attain more than one gate, can he still open another Water gate?
No it's the red dragon.
Maybe you can only open one at a time, so even if you learn to use them all 1 is your limit, plus some negate each other like when Ishiyumi lured Souichiro into the water so he could use his gate but Nagi couldn't. Something similar happened in the Tetsuhito Maya fight but the translation was weird. Maya said this power is "late" so it won't work in water, what does late mean?
My original theory was that any ordinary person can have any one of the 7 dragons but that's it and red feathers have one of the seven plus there own unique one. But really there's nothing in the books to support it either way. I remeber we debated this before, like what if Nagi eats someone elses power that has the earth gate does he then have 2? I really wish OG would clarify it.
Didn't he use the earth dragon's gate when he fought Mataza? And then used the Water (Blood) Bullets also? I'm guessing he does have 2.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:57 pm

BlackArtistik wrote:[
Didn't he use the earth dragon's gate when he fought Mataza? And then used the Water (Blood) Bullets also? I'm guessing he does have 2.
I meant 2 of the same gate.

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Post by BlackArtistik » Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:44 pm

kk1 wrote:
BlackArtistik wrote:[
Didn't he use the earth dragon's gate when he fought Mataza? And then used the Water (Blood) Bullets also? I'm guessing he does have 2.
I meant 2 of the same gate.
Ah.

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