Fight 99

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Sleepy Weasel
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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:55 am

kk1 wrote: Nagi is not a bad guy he isn't going to kill anyone, remeber he couldn't even hit his dad?

but he's not really "all" nagi anymore tho :)

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Post by tkstka » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:56 pm

Sleepy Weasel wrote:
kk1 wrote: Nagi is not a bad guy he isn't going to kill anyone, remeber he couldn't even hit his dad?

but he's not really "all" nagi anymore tho :)
Ya Tawara, Aya, Masataka, Bob, Madoka

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Post by kk1 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:51 am

MrProphet wrote:Well, not really. We are trying to decide whether Sagara was actually hit, or it just was in his mind.

I'd say it was pretty ambiguous, with no obvious way to tell the actual truth. I see no evidence to suggest that Nagi is capable of Dragon Eye-like illusions, which would certainly be necessary for this kind of thing.

From what they've shown us, I'd say Sagara was hit for real. Until we see more of him, I see no reason to think otherwise (other than for pure speculation, of course).
He was TALKING, how can you talk after being eviscerated? Plus all his "gang" were standing around going "huh wha" cause they saw it too. How did his mask disintegrate? Wouldn't that take some new red feather power we don't know about wouldn't that that be necessary for this kind of thing? NO it was just to show how freaking powerful Nagi is now, he doesn't even have to touch a guy and he knows he's beat, that's how much ki Nagi is exuding and he didn't even open his gate and turn his hair black, doesn't anyone remeber Souhaku had been feeding him ki for weeks(or longer who knows)? That's why he asks "Who are you?" "Are you even human?" (something someone who has had the lower third of their spine destroyed wouldn't be able to do, heck he wouldn't even be able to stand) that's how completely different Nagi is.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:59 am

The way Sagara was talking to me it seemed like he started some speech that he had already prepared, but then as he was going into it, he got punched by Nagi (Forged Needle "reverse striking" attack), his back got blown out, he kept talking - but notice the many ... in his speech, and right before he's about to fall over he says "are you even human?"

Sagara's goons are reacting because they just saw their boss' guts blown out his back, and his mask flew apart from the impact spreading out radially from where he was hit.

But I might be wrong. I think we won't know until the next issue.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:52 pm

FuguTabetai wrote:The way Sagara was talking to me it seemed like he started some speech that he had already prepared, but then as he was going into it, he got punched by Nagi (Forged Needle "reverse striking" attack), his back got blown out, he kept talking - but notice the many ... in his speech, and right before he's about to fall over he says "are you even human?"

Sagara's goons are reacting because they just saw their boss' guts blown out his back, and his mask flew apart from the impact spreading out radially from where he was hit.

But I might be wrong. I think we won't know until the next issue.
I might be too but if I am, I'm really dissapointed OG would make Nagi do that.

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Post by kujoe » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:18 pm

Well, if it really happened that way, it would look really...weird.

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Post by Hollowshingami » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:57 pm

FuguTabetai wrote:The way Sagara was talking to me it seemed like he started some speech that he had already prepared, but then as he was going into it, he got punched by Nagi (Forged Needle "reverse striking" attack), his back got blown out, he kept talking - but notice the many ... in his speech, and right before he's about to fall over he says "are you even human?"

Sagara's goons are reacting because they just saw their boss' guts blown out his back, and his mask flew apart from the impact spreading out radially from where he was hit.

But I might be wrong. I think we won't know until the next issue.
It's still weird as hell that he was able to stand that long to say something like that. I would think at that point you would just slump over. It just seemed like Nagi showed him an illusion or something along those lines. But if all Sagara's guys saw it then maybe Sagara is done for.

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Post by gundammrw » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:11 am

The attack from Nagi is no different than the attack that Shin did on Bunshichi. It was a series of saki(killing intent) attacks that emprinted the image of death in your opponent even though no actual attack took place. It was done by Shin, Orochimaru does it against Sasuke and Sakura in Naruto. The feeling of a sword at Ichigo's throat as he ran from Kenpachi in Bleach is another subtle example of this. Hell even in Hajime no Ippo, Ippo learns how to mix a faint with Saki so that the opponent believes that an actual punch is being thrown.

Sagura's mask ripping was a product of the fact that chi attacks, as Maya pointed out at the series, can control the destination of the attack. Nagi was just proving his strength and intent on fighting by destroying it.

Sagura's goons were shocked at the appearance and disappearance of the saki image which is why one of them rubs his eyes. Its not unusual that others can see the image of saki between two people. After all, Fu chi'en say it with Shin and Bunshichi and made the comment, "This is what is called playing with an opponent right?". I'm pretty sure if the man they look up too just had his spine relocated to the floor they would have freaked.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:48 pm

gundammrw wrote:The attack from Nagi is no different than the attack that Shin did on Bunshichi. It was a series of saki(killing intent) attacks that emprinted the image of death in your opponent even though no actual attack took place. It was done by Shin, Orochimaru does it against Sasuke and Sakura in Naruto. The feeling of a sword at Ichigo's throat as he ran from Kenpachi in Bleach is another subtle example of this. Hell even in Hajime no Ippo, Ippo learns how to mix a faint with Saki so that the opponent believes that an actual punch is being thrown.

Sagura's mask ripping was a product of the fact that chi attacks, as Maya pointed out at the series, can control the destination of the attack. Nagi was just proving his strength and intent on fighting by destroying it.

Sagura's goons were shocked at the appearance and disappearance of the saki image which is why one of them rubs his eyes. Its not unusual that others can see the image of saki between two people. After all, Fu chi'en say it with Shin and Bunshichi and made the comment, "This is what is called playing with an opponent right?". I'm pretty sure if the man they look up too just had his spine relocated to the floor they would have freaked.
Aya does it to Nagi once too, when he refuses to be trained by his mom Aya draws a pretend sword and slices him in half and he reacts like he feels it. I think even Maya does it to Aya in their fight on the rooftop of the school.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:28 pm

I don't believe that Soichirou killed anyone. I think what we see in the panel is Sagara's point of view of what would have happened had he been hit. His gang's reactions are what he imagined they would do after seeing him eviscerated. Everything is therefore in Sagara's 'vision'.
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Post by jimmy1200 » Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:03 pm

wtf. its blatantly obvious. one page there is a hole in the middle of him, and then the next page it shows nagi right infront of him with his fist to his gut, and a shocked reaction on sags face because he thinks he just got killed. hole, then no hole.
its the same killing intent scene in every fight manga. are we having a moment of duh on mt.com.
no offense, but it was pretty obvious when i saw it the first time.
end of that debate.

and mitsu didnt give her the earing. he dropped it in a cup and it broke. what does that mean. has he moved on. who is he going to become. i dont think the death theory is going to happen. i think something powerful is about to come forth from mitsu very soon.

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:06 pm

jimmy1200 wrote:wtf. its blatantly obvious. one page there is a hole in the middle of him, and then the next page it shows nagi right infront of him with his fist to his gut, and a shocked reaction on sags face because he thinks he just got killed. hole, then no hole.
its the same killing intent scene in every fight manga. are we having a moment of duh on mt.com.
no offense, but it was pretty obvious when i saw it the first time.
end of that debate.

read chapter 7 again ^^ this is what we are debating.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:58 pm

jimmy1200 wrote:are we having a moment of duh on mt.com.
no offense, but it was pretty obvious when i saw it the first time.
Perhaps I am "having a moment of duh". It certainly wasn't clear to me, but I'm different from most people here: I don't read much manga. In fact, the only manga I've read is pretty much what I've translated here (my first manga ever was Great Teacher Onidzuka, I thought that was the bomb, so I started translating mange.)

Tenjo Tenge is my first "school fight" type manga. I've read a bit of some others, but they didn't hold my interest.

So if it is a clichéd thing, I am not likely to know it.

I've been convinced that it is much more likely now that in fact, this was some sort of mini dream sequence and that Nagi did not punch a hole through Sagara.

It's too bad in a way, because I like the Tenjo Tenge world where people get hurt bad and die (it just doesn't seem to happen to characters that Oh! Great likes. And he seems to like Sagara lot.)

Anyway, I've always said that I am likely to be wrong. My Japanese is good (or so they tell me) but I don't have a background in manga culture.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to chapter 100.

And, nice to see you post after so long, jimmy1200.

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Post by Gigei » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:48 pm

Whoa it's just to me it was obvious because Nagi wouldn't punch a hole through Saga like that. He just wouldn't, it's not in his character to do that.

It's the whole fake Mitsoumi thing that was shocking to me. Cheater!

P.S. The earrings are the ones Mana gave him. He first put them on after Mana and Shin died (in front of her altar, IIRC). I guess they symbolize what he is fighting for.

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Post by MrProphet » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:05 pm

Gigei wrote:Whoa it's just to me it was obvious because Nagi wouldn't punch a hole through Saga like that. He just wouldn't, it's not in his character to do that.
Is it in his character to make his mother's arm explode? Is it in his character to fight and badly beat complete strangers that his estranged father sends to him for a reason completely unknown to him?

Seems to me like people assign to Nagi qualities that he does not exactly possess. Maybe a Generic Main Character #52712 would, but Nagi doesn't seem to be one.

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Post by kk1 » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:26 am

MrProphet wrote:
Gigei wrote:Whoa it's just to me it was obvious because Nagi wouldn't punch a hole through Saga like that. He just wouldn't, it's not in his character to do that.
Is it in his character to make his mother's arm explode? Is it in his character to fight and badly beat complete strangers that his estranged father sends to him for a reason completely unknown to him?

Seems to me like people assign to Nagi qualities that he does not exactly possess. Maybe a Generic Main Character #52712 would, but Nagi doesn't seem to be one.
nagi did neither of those things of his own volition and neither compares to murder.

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Post by MrProphet » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:06 am

Oh, really?

And who forced him to beat up Kabane for no apparent reason? Did anyone force him to attack Makiko? Mataza perhaps?

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Post by kujoe » Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:32 am

And if you were Nagi, would you rather just stand there and get yourself beaten up? Jesus, we know Nagi can be an ass, but he isn't that stupid to let himself get beaten up. Moreover, Inue has her own significant role to play as well. So, who knows what's it's really like in those days with Souhaku? That scene with Kabane and with Shizuru can only show so much.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember that Nagi was out of control when his mother—despite knowing the risks to her weakened body—attempts to suppress his Dragon's Fist, thus resulting in the loss of her arm. The same thing happens when he fights Mataza: Nagi eventually loses control. And seriously, would Nagi (and co.) just stand just there as Mataza stabs them with a spear? Should I then define this as "out of character?"

Besides, Nagi has been, at times, all talk. I doubt he even has the guts to actually take someone's life.

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Post by MrProphet » Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:19 pm

OK, so who says that Nagi:

a) wasn't protecting himself.

and/or

b) wasn't in control of his actions

when may or may not have killed Sagara?

I fail to see the difference that would let me categorically state that Nagi could not, under any circumstances, kill Sagara for one reason or another.

That's the crux of this problem. For some reason, some of you are able to categorically state that something is impossible, while the actual chapter has presented it in quite an ambiguous manner that allows various interpretations. I don't see how you arrive at that logical point, other than by blind faith that a Token Main Character simply cannot do stuff like that in regular stories.

A "duh moment" is fine and good, but I prefer something more concrete.

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Post by kujoe » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:04 pm

Personally, I'm not 100% sure of what truly happened with Sagara in this particular scene either—we'll probably have to find out for ourselves in the next chapter—but I was just wondering how you could say that Nagi has the qualities of a potential killer by bringing up what happened to Makiko and Mataza. That's what surprised me.

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Post by geohound03 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:03 am

Personally for me, that scene as I saw it wasn't truely Nagi. To me it looked as though his father already took some control over him in that scene, as Nagi wouldn't even know he has a power like that, correct? The way Nagi does that without so much as saying 'whoa' which would be typical of him, it really seemed like another person. As for whether Sagara is dead or not - uh is it just me or is this a really easy Q to answer - even in the most outrageously unrealistic manga and anime, when someone's stomach contents get blown out like that for real, they are hardly able to speak even 2 words. Sagara was not only still standing, he was able to speak and think about what he was saying. As for the many '...', if someone made you think your stomach had just been blown out your back, wouldn't you be a bit cautious in your speech?

Thats just my opinion of matters, but in Fugu's defence, I had to look over those couple of pages again and again before I could decide, it doesn't really make it very clear visually.

As for Mitsuomi clonage, real clone or person imitating regardless, all I have to say is 'what the hell?!'. As others have said, it really seems completely non-Mitsuomi like. Bu then again, in this chapter Mitsuomi wasn't the only character who was off-character.

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:23 pm

kujoe wrote:Personally, I'm not 100% sure of what truly happened with Sagara in this particular scene either—we'll probably have to find out for ourselves in the next chapter—but I was just wondering how you could say that Nagi has the qualities of a potential killer by bringing up what happened to Makiko and Mataza. That's what surprised me.
Well, you tell me. 8)

If Makiko hasn't stopped Souichirou, what would have happened to Mataza?

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Post by kk1 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:03 pm

MrProphet wrote:
kujoe wrote:Personally, I'm not 100% sure of what truly happened with Sagara in this particular scene either—we'll probably have to find out for ourselves in the next chapter—but I was just wondering how you could say that Nagi has the qualities of a potential killer by bringing up what happened to Makiko and Mataza. That's what surprised me.
Well, you tell me. 8)

If Makiko hasn't stopped Souichirou, what would have happened to Mataza?
Why do you think Makiko had to do what she did? If Nagi was in control of himself he would have never come close to hitting his mother. I'll tell you what Mr.P if you're right about this I'll hail you as an all knowing genius in a final post and never post here again.

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Post by kujoe » Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:48 pm

MrProphet wrote:Well, you tell me. 8)

If Makiko hasn't stopped Souichirou, what would have happened to Mataza?
Perhaps we're looking at this differently. If Aya cut off Masataka's leg due to her berserking Dragon's Eye and beat up Maya and Nagi who tried to stop her in the process, would you say she's a sadistic butcher who took pleasure in it then?

I'm just saying that I doubt Nagi can even bring himself to kill anyone at this point. (Well, he did try...) If you'd prefer to read as him as one without a doubt—go ahead, be my guest. But bringing up Makiko as part of your rationale is rather questionable and poor.

*sigh* Just forget I what I even said. I have a feeling this is just going to go nowhere.
geohound03 wrote:Personally for me, that scene as I saw it wasn't truely Nagi. To me it looked as though his father already took some control over him in that scene, as Nagi wouldn't even know he has a power like that, correct? The way Nagi does that without so much as saying 'whoa' which would be typical of him, it really seemed like another person.
Maybe. But since some time has gone by after being fed "meat" by Souhaku, and since he has been training along with the other members under the guidance of Masataka (finally), I'm sure that he's aware that he has gotten stronger and better at fighting. At least, that's what I think. But yes, if he only knows what Aya knows...

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Post by MrProphet » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:13 am

kujoe wrote:Perhaps we're looking at this differently. If Aya cut off Masataka's leg due to her berserking Dragon's Eye and beat up Maya and Nagi who tried to stop her in the process, would you say she's a sadistic butcher who took pleasure in it then?
I never said anything about butchers.

What I did say is that under certain circumstances, Nagi can hurt someone badly, or even kill them. So an argument that Sagara is alive because it's not in Nagi's nature to kill someone is, in my opinion, false.

That's all I was saying from the very beginning. I wasn't claiming that Sagara is dead. I wasn't claiming that Sagara isn't dead. I wasn't claiming anything about Nagi either. I was just urging people to examine the scene from various perspectives and not be caged by their own notions about what Nagi is supposed to be or supposed to do.

What happened in the scene is not the issue! Me trying to shed doubt on the opinion that everything is clear-cut and obvious is the issue.

PS: Don't get too upset, it's not a big deal. Just a manga, after all.

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Post by kujoe » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:02 pm

MrProphet wrote:I never said anything about butchers.
I was just making an example in order to confirm something.
MrProphet wrote:I wasn't claiming anything about Nagi either. I was just urging people to examine the scene from various perspectives and not be caged by their own notions about what Nagi is supposed to be or supposed to do.
Oh, really? Yes, you were urging others to examine the scene. We're all wondering about it.

But then, you also did question of whether it is "in his (Nagi's) character to make his mother's arm explode." Qualities of character.

It sounded as if, just because he can fight back and can hurt other people, your answer is "yes." We all know how important she is to Nagi. If you were actually referring to the nature of his power instead, then that is something I misunderstood.
MrProphet wrote:PS: Don't get too upset, it's not a big deal. Just a manga, after all.
Funny how that works.
Last edited by kujoe on Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:28 pm

Nagi's a bit of a roughneck though. I think he's actually softened up from where he was before coming to Toudou Gakuen. Probably because he's meeting people as strong as he is for the first time.

Anyway, I'm interested to see what is coming up next. I've been mostly convinced that the Sagara guts-blowing-out thing is a kind of dream sequence, but I wouldn't be surprised either way.

We'll probably have to wait until January to find out though. :P

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Post by MrProphet » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:21 pm

I wonder, though, why does sensei rush things right now? After such a long-winded and going-nowhere trek into Souhaku's mansion (that didn't really accomplish anything except get Maya semi-killed) and the Ancient Arc flashback (that didn't accomplish anything except give us new info in the only way sensei knows) we are looking at a fairly fast-paced segue into the Tournament Arc.

I mean, it's one thing to announce that it's the final arc, but Oh! Great seems to be determined to get things going.

So, what's the rush? He's got some other new project on his mind? Air Gear also seems to be transitioning to the end sequence, so it's possible.

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:17 am

no 100 til december :(

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