Fight 104

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Fight 104

Post by MrProphet » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:49 am

Comes out tomorrow.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:27 am

Finally looks like something's going to happen, nice Aya pic.

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Post by Dgames » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:02 pm

how you think asshat fight is going to end?

I think is going to win even whit that broken arm because i think he realised
that she has a worm in her neck so he is going to hit it and she get's unable to fight :)
I also this in fight 104 Maya is going to return because asshat is going to hospital and they need the 5 member to continue in the preliminares i think :P

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Post by iijyanaika » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:54 pm

i love this aya pic!

can't wait for the rest of the chapter to come out. sugano already gave her a direct right in her face, so i don't really see him doing much else to finish this fight since his arm is gone.

i wonder in what direction the story is going to go after his fight.

thanks mr prophet

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:15 am

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Post by Dgames » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:57 am

translation plz i don't understand japanese :P

But i guess she is saying for asshat to fight harder

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Post by Swordfish II » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:49 am

Hmmmm, the image of that forest so painstakingly cultivated in the previous chapter going up in flames doesn't bode well for Asshat. Keeping my fingers crossed for the guy, though...

kk1, you're right, nice Aya pic. But most Aya pics are pretty nice. :)

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:04 pm

Here it is: http://www.mrprophet.com/temp/v17c104.zip

Enjoy. 8)

Pretty badass chapter. Asshat is unstoppable, even with a broken arm. Aya finally notices that Koumikawa is a puppet and rushes to apprehend Nokimi. Unfortunately for her, Mitsuomi sends in Kabane, who stops Aya with his very cool array of mystic blades. 8)

I don't understand Mitsuomi's plans at all. Nokimi and Kabane aren't working together, as obviously seen from Nokimi's surprise. But Kabane won't let Aya get to Nokimi either, which suggests...what? Mitsuomi not wanting to upset the balance of power by giving Jyukenbu an upper hand? Mitsuomi is rekindling his alliance with Souhaku?

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Post by Ricco » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:30 pm

My guess is that she is being brought in by Kabane for questioning regarding Souhaku's plan/status, the destruction of her vials screams "it's useless to struggle, follow me and you won't be harmed".

The fact Kabane "saved" Nokimi from Aya is likely cuz they need her or the info she has.
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Post by kk1 » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:06 pm

MrProphet wrote:Here it is: http://www.mrprophet.com/temp/v17c104.zip

Enjoy. 8)

Pretty badass chapter. Asshat is unstoppable, even with a broken arm. Aya finally notices that Koumikawa is a puppet and rushes to apprehend Nokimi. Unfortunately for her, Mitsuomi sends in Kabane, who stops Aya with his very cool array of mystic blades. 8)

I don't understand Mitsuomi's plans at all. Nokimi and Kabane aren't working together, as obviously seen from Nokimi's surprise. But Kabane won't let Aya get to Nokimi either, which suggests...what? Mitsuomi not wanting to upset the balance of power by giving Jyukenbu an upper hand? Mitsuomi is rekindling his alliance with Souhaku?
He knows Souhaku's plan and is letting it go forward to awaken all the super powered people so he can then defeat them, or since he's with his dad again so he can finish his plan for the superpowered people. Either way that's what I get out of it. Mitsuomi knows what Souhaku is up to and since he didn't doesn't want it stopped he must want him to at least start it so he can take advantage of it.
Kabane is cool, and he obviously didn't want to hurt Aya just stop her, I wonder how anyone could fight Kabane? Obviously in the past they negated his power but with no one that can do that now how can you possibly fight him?

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Post by Ricco » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:48 pm

kk1 wrote:
MrProphet wrote:Here it is: http://www.mrprophet.com/temp/v17c104.zip

Enjoy. 8)

Pretty badass chapter. Asshat is unstoppable, even with a broken arm. Aya finally notices that Koumikawa is a puppet and rushes to apprehend Nokimi. Unfortunately for her, Mitsuomi sends in Kabane, who stops Aya with his very cool array of mystic blades. 8)

I don't understand Mitsuomi's plans at all. Nokimi and Kabane aren't working together, as obviously seen from Nokimi's surprise. But Kabane won't let Aya get to Nokimi either, which suggests...what? Mitsuomi not wanting to upset the balance of power by giving Jyukenbu an upper hand? Mitsuomi is rekindling his alliance with Souhaku?
He knows Souhaku's plan and is letting it go forward to awaken all the super powered people so he can then defeat them, or since he's with his dad again so he can finish his plan for the superpowered people. Either way that's what I get out of it. Mitsuomi knows what Souhaku is up to and since he didn't doesn't want it stopped he must want him to at least start it so he can take advantage of it.
Kabane is cool, and he obviously didn't want to hurt Aya just stop her, I wonder how anyone could fight Kabane? Obviously in the past they negated his power but with no one that can do that now how can you possibly fight him?
Actually we don't know if no one has that power(he/she could pop out of nowhere like Nokimi). There are ways as of now to beat him: Dragon's Eye(you can foresee the blades path), Dragon's Fist(wouldn't the gate be swallowed if his fist hit a blade?), long range attacks (Forged Needle...) and last but not least the almighty "Author's-plot-twist-in-which-Kabane-looses-for-no-apparent-reason-other-then-that-it's-the-main-character's-job-to-beat-the-last-Boss. "
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Post by HappyStealer » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:03 pm

wow, cool how the dragon's eye is kinda like a spidey sense. Love the fancy swords by Kabane. Reminds me a tad bit of Archer's Unlimited Blade Works from Fate/Stay Night, with all those swords appearing.

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Post by kujoe » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:10 pm

Thanks for the link, MrProphet.

Hmmm, pretty awesome chapter. How indeed can Aya cope against such a fighter? Hopefully, we'll be able to see her use the Dragon's Eye again. If not, well, all that ruckus is bound to alert the others anyway.
Ricco wrote:Actually we don't know if no one has that power(he/she could pop out of nowhere like Nokimi). There are ways as of now to beat him: Dragon's Eye(you can foresee the blades path), Dragon's Fist(wouldn't the gate be swallowed if his fist hit a blade?), long range attacks (Forged Needle...) and last but not least the almighty "Author's-plot-twist-in-which-Kabane-looses-for-no-apparent-reason-other-then-that-it's-the-main-character's-job-to-beat-the-last-Boss. "
OG should let Madoka fight again. But yeah, plot twist is probably the way to go. I'm not sure about the "last boss" part though. :wink: Our heroes still have a long way to go before meeting Souhaku again. (Oh wait, he's right there with them right now.)

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Post by kk1 » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:15 am

Ricco wrote: Actually we don't know if no one has that power(he/she could pop out of nowhere like Nokimi). There are ways as of now to beat him: Dragon's Eye(you can foresee the blades path), Dragon's Fist(wouldn't the gate be swallowed if his fist hit a blade?), long range attacks (Forged Needle...) and last but not least the almighty "Author's-plot-twist-in-which-Kabane-looses-for-no-apparent-reason-other-then-that-it's-the-main-character's-job-to-beat-the-last-Boss. "
True but if that were so don't you think Souhaku would be using that person again like in the past? Maybe with Reiki but it looked like Aya was pretty helpless this chapter. Well so far Nagi has had to physically hit the person's body so hitting a blade wouldn't work I would imagine, and from what we have seen Kabane has quite a long range with his blades so I don't think that would work (the farther away you are would just make it that much easier for him to dodge also), I think I'll go for that last one though Im guessing it will be really cool like in the past arc.

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Post by HappyStealer » Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:22 am

awww don't rule aya out yet. This is probably the first time she's ever come across kabane in a real life situation and probably her first time (not counting the past arc kabane since she wasn't "physically there") seeing kabane's ability. Haha, wait a minute, it looks more like Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon from Fate Stay Night. whoopsie. Hmmm.... Jamaica hoodie... and seems like he was able to sneak up on nokimi without her noticing..... interesting.... I would vote for option 3 also, though the tohers would work if aya had reiki. Forged needle attack might not work since it seems he could possibly deflect it with his blades and kk1's statement of dodging long range attacks and having long range attacks himself. Dragon Fist may work if he has an ability that can withstand the impact of fist to blade like how ichiyou broke that guy yukimara's sword and depending on whether the dragon fist connects. Anyways, this chapter brings me hope that the school tournament is gonna be soooooo sweet.... :D

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Post by MrProphet » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:04 am

Well, we don't really know what Kabane's dragon gate is all about just yet.

Is it just the Unlimited Blade Works, where he spawns countless flying swords, or does it have any other property? I seem to vaguely remember that Kabane's gate had something to do with death.

If it's just the swords, then Aya's Dragon Eye could counter that. But if he has another trick up his sleeve then he could be trouble. Though, since Aya has already seen the original Kabane in action via Reiki, then she must already know what that trick is, if there's any.

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Post by HappyStealer » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:43 pm

It just reminds me of the spawning of UBW. But when I thought of it, it reminds me more of the spawning of Gil's Gate of Babylon.

Its either death or corpses thats associated with Kabane.

Can't wait for next month. I wanna see if Kabane and Aya are gonna duke it out or is oh! great gonna leave it at that and kabanae escapes or something something...

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Post by iijyanaika » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:06 pm

who would have thought kabane would be popping out at this time. and it's interesting to see OG put jamaica on his sweater now. i wonder where that was randomly pulled from.

i wonder why his eyes are -always- closed as well. maybe it has something to do with his powers. is he doing it purposefully, or is he blind?

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Post by MrProphet » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:29 pm

HappyStealer wrote:It just reminds me of the spawning of UBW. But when I thought of it, it reminds me more of the spawning of Gil's Gate of Babylon.
If you've the read the latest chapter of Air Gear, you'd notice that Oh! Great also used the Gate of Babylon there. Sora's Infinity Atmosphere looks exactly like it.

So, I'm guessing that Oh! Great watched Fate/stay night and really liked that trick, because it appeared in both of his mangas at the same time. 8)

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Post by kk1 » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:01 pm

HappyStealer wrote:It just reminds me of the spawning of UBW. But when I thought of it, it reminds me more of the spawning of Gil's Gate of Babylon.

Its either death or corpses thats associated with Kabane.

Can't wait for next month. I wanna see if Kabane and Aya are gonna duke it out or is oh! great gonna leave it at that and kabanae escapes or something something...
The death thing for Kabane was just a blurb in the UJ special before his power was known, his power is the blades and the blades only. And unlike real blades they look like they can cut through anything, I'm not sure if Nagi's fist could hold up to it (though since they're both ki based it's possible). Kabane escape? Aya's falling off of a building I just want to see her get out of that first :D

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Post by Strangler » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:50 pm

About the eyes. You have to remember the Kabane from the past Arc had his eyes closed too. There might be, indeed, something related... Or just OH great ! wanted to have his own Shaka from Saint Seiya.
hehe

Kabane rocks and this chapter rocks as well.
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Post by HappyStealer » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:22 am

well maybe kabane is gonna jet while aya is trying to recover from the falling rocks. LOL who knows... She probably has the double jump ability or something LOL Ah it was from the UJ special... no wonder it sounded familiar.

Maybe Oh! Great did like FS/N so much he had to use it in both his mangas. haha, I really do like the summoning sword/rain of swords effect though... it looks sooo sweet. And Final Fantasy Versus XIII main character seems to be able to summon swords too. That's why I'm real excited to see what we can do in that game.

It was rocks that were used in place of swords when sora unleashed his ability but it still had a Gate of Babylon feel to it. Oh! Great seems to be uping the chapters this month for both mangas. :-D

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Post by iijyanaika » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:18 am

so a couple of you have talked about this fate stay night thing. is it a game? if so, is it any good?

i wonder if when aya tries to cross with kabane, she'll more than likely have her sword broken to bits. maybe she'll pick up reiki again, but at least now have better control? we haven't really seen aya have time to shine with maya kickin ass. now that sugano is done, we'll get a little aya time?

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Post by HappyStealer » Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:48 am

I hope eventually we get to see Aya really utilize her Dragon's Eye to its full potential. Yeah, she's always been under the shadow of maya. Hopefully she'll get to shine eventually.

Whoo.... didn't know this but the second OST for Airgear anime came out and this is the one I've been looking for, first one was a tad disappointing. Has the best of the Chain remixes and those were the best....

Fate Stay Night is a doujin turned anime and manga. In the doujin, you can follow 3 different stories. In the anime, it followed the first story plot which mainly involves Emiya Shiro(main character) and his servant, Saber. However, the other two stories not done in the anime involve other people. It was an ok anime but the reason I didn't like it as much is because I preferred the second story called Unlimited Blade Works (this is also an ability of one of the servants and is the title of the second story). Nonetheless, its a good watch, not the greatest tho.

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:15 pm

The death thing for Kabane was just a blurb in the UJ special before his power was known, his power is the blades and the blades only.
Since you are speaking about something that is news to me so authoritatively, then I am sure that you have proof.

Go ahead, present your argument about Kabane. Volume number, chapter, page, the whole nine yards. I'd like to see where Oh! Great explained Kabane's power, as I am sure others are as well. That is... I am just assuming that you are not just taking it all out of the air, right?

Not to sound too caustic, but I really don't understand where you're getting all of this.

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Post by Swordfish II » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:52 pm

MrProphet wrote:
The death thing for Kabane was just a blurb in the UJ special before his power was known, his power is the blades and the blades only.
Since you are speaking about something that is news to me so authoritatively, then I am sure that you have proof.
Perhaps I can be of some help here since I just re-read all 104 chapters, although I cannot be 100% sure that my analysis is correct. From checking back to the chapters where Kabane Myouun first appeared, it does seem that Kabane's power is those crazy floating blades, which are first seen in vol. 15 pg. 83.

I say this because of the following:

When Kabane first appears in vol. 15 pg. 82, he identifies himself and states that he is "currently dead" (where he also calls himself "the city of the blind"). This is indeed confusing, especially since he appears skeletal and this is, after all, Tenjou Tenge :wink:, but I believe he says this in a metaphorical sense only, since it is later revealed that ten years previously he was involved in some sort of fire where many people died. This event is referred to as what happened "on the mountain" (vol. 15 pages 143-145), and it seems that he allowed some people to burn in order to save many more. Those victims' skulls he then wore around his neck for the rest of his life, and it seems like he has lived his whole life since that day seeking atonement in his own heart.

I believe that the mystic blades (which he calls "the Fist of the Bodhisattva" in vol. 15 pg. 144) are indeed his dragon's gate, because later, when he is attacked and killed by Yagiyuushin Jirou Yoshikatu (vol. 15 pg. 157), his attempt to use his swords is instantly and completely blocked by the Magatama shrine maiden Senhime's "God Amarerasu" dragon gate (vol. 15 pg. 152), which as we see in vol. 15 pg. 183, neutralize all other dragon's gates. So it seems that, if these blades were magic, Senhime's power would have had no effect. Naming these blades for the Bodhisattva is also confusing, because on the surface it implies some sort of magic (to me, at least), but I think this is simply an attribution due to Kabane's Buddhist faith.

The Amarerasu dragon's gate also seems to be dependent on some sort of magical 6-pointed star arrangement also being set up first, which was done by the (nekkid, of course) women in vol. 15 pg. 150. Why that's required I still don't understand.

I hope this helps,

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:18 pm

You didn't answer the question I asked.

The issue here is if those swords are simply that... swords, or whether they are complemented by some other power that comes with Kabane swinging them around.

The UltraJump guide to Tenjou Tenge mentioned that Kabane Dragon Gate has something to do with death. KK1 here claims that Oh! Great, who wrote that guide, is somehow wrong. I'd like to see some proof behind such bold statements.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:15 pm

I'm busy, but I'll butt in to try to head off any name calling.

To my knowledge, we do not know fully what Kabane's powers are. All Kabane in this chapter says about the swords is that they are a much stronger version of what Aya saw in her flashback, fully able to cut her up if she doesn't withdraw. He does not say anything about their origin, or the full extent of his powers. It may just be the swords, or there may be more to it. We just don't know yet.

I'll start translating this weekend I think.

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Post by HappyStealer » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:59 pm

Hmmm much stronger versions........... interesting. Man thats a prety crazy threat.... Wonder if Aya is gonna back down or not... LOL

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Post by iijyanaika » Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:24 am

i don't really have much to offer as far as info goes on kabane. but i did find some interesting things looking back.

go back to fight 84 pg23 and kagiori uses an attack from the kabane family(we don't really see what it is, but maya says it.)

fight 87 pg6 - kabane is able to sense that aya's ki is flowing out of her and is synchronizing with something(reiki).
-the very top picture shows more of kabane's forehead which has a symbol of an eye in the middle
-and why is the right eye *sealed*

as far as new people being introduced, kabane is very much taking the cake for me.

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Post by HappyStealer » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:16 am

he's a very interesting character because kabane and shyoujyou were the last set of red feathers introduced in the ancient history arc, plus ancient kabane was killed off before we knew the power behind him.

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Post by kk1 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:04 am



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Post by MrProphet » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:04 am

Take, for example, Dragon Eye. We know that its user can predict all of the moves of his/her opponent. That is one side of it. But the bigger picture is that the Dragon Eye user can see ALL strands of causality and by following them predict the future in general and see the past as it unfolds.

Or take Dragon Fist. When used in battle, it seems like a really-really powerful punch, a power that makes its user stronger and faster than any other fighter. That's the overt side. The bigger picture is that the Dragon Fist can actually sap the ki from its opponent.

So, what is the Kabane Dragon Gate? Overtly it seems like Kabane summons a bunch of swords that he can command with the power of his mind. KK1 here claims that for some reason, that's all there is to it. I guess that past experience has taught me that unless Oh! Great says that that's all there is to it, then it's a distinct possibility that Kabane Dragon Gate has a more general purpose that will reveal itself eventually.

As the rant above my message has established, I am not missing any evidence that Oh! Great actually said anything definitive on this matter. And claiming unequivocally otherwise is not only strange, but also shortsighted.

PS: I know everything there is to know about straw man arguments and their usage in a debate. They won't work on me, sorry. 8)

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Post by FuguTabetai » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:43 am

I personally don't think that we know what Kabane's full power is until Oh! Great says something about it. Just because that guy is sneaky, and you can't trust what he implies.

But everyone is welcome to their own theories.

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Post by Swordfish II » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:04 am

FuguTabetai wrote:I personally don't think that we know what Kabane's full power is until Oh! Great says something about it. Just because that guy is sneaky, and you can't trust what he implies.
Truer words were never said; my sentiments exactly. And I think OG has a lot of fun with that, which means we here get to have fun with that. I also think he himself sometimes loses track of everything. :wink:

MrProphet, thanks for this thread, first of all. Your idea that dragon's gates must be complemented by some other power is an interesting one, and I can see what you mean from your examples (I did not understand your question as it was phrased earlier), but perhaps Kabane's "Fist of the Bodhisattva" does not conform to this rule. It does seem that there are other red feather abilities that also may not conform to this, such as Kago's "Flaming" gate, Shyoujyou's doppleganger ability (don't know that that gate is called), Ishiyumi Tessen's water dragon and Mataza's Dragon Claw (both now in the possession of Souichirou), etc. Not that I can figure, anyway.

kk1, I did DL the UJ Special and see what you mean, and I agree with the context and meaning of "corpse". I did also note the similarity between the Dragon's Claw and Kabane's blades.

But as fugu says, it's sort of impossible to know for sure!

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Post by MrProphet » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:20 am

Swordfish II wrote:It does seem that there are other red feather abilities that also may not conform to this, such as Kago's "Flaming" gate, Shyoujyou's doppleganger ability (don't know that that gate is called), Ishiyumi Tessen's water dragon and Mataza's Dragon Claw (both now in the possession of Souichirou), etc. Not that I can figure, anyway.
I think I would contest that for several reasons.

- Mataza is from a lower family, so it's understandable if his Dragon Gate is also of lower complexity than the overall Red Feather clan he belongs to.

- Tessen is not a Red Feather at all. His water dragon is one of the 7 normal Dragon Gates that are available to everyone with enough skill. We are talking specifically about Red Feathers and the 8th Dragon Gate they alone possess.

- Shoujou also fits my profile. Think about it. His basic power is to assume the appearance of others. But his overall general power goes beyond this. Not only is he able to look like someone else, but he is also able to gain their abilities, skills, techniques, etc.

- As for Kago, I must say that I am not even sure as to what exactly his power is. He demonstrated several abilities so far. He can regenerate his flesh (his fingers, to be exact), but he can also control the minds of others.

Since Nokimi and Inue both belong to Kago subordinate families and both of their powers have to do with mind control, then it's obvious that Souhaku's own power also must be some version of mind control. But, how exactly does it work and how much Kago can do with his power is still unknown.

See what I mean?

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Post by kk1 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:46 pm

Wow you people are reading way to much into this, and I don't think Oh! Great is as sneaky as you're all making him out to be. He has gone over and over explaining these powers(the first past arc was just to explain the dragon's eye) and for some reason all it's done is confuse people. Forget their names for a moment and remeber they are all ki based and please keep in mind in the Ten Ten universe ki controls everything. There are no "dragons" and the powers do not have mutiple aspects to them, unlike how the all wise Mr Prophet misunderstands and wants you to believe.
It has been explained numerous times the Nagi family is the only family whose power has more than one aspect to it. To supply an infinite amount of ki to their fist(which turns into a powerful punch) and absorb the chakra of whoever they hit with their fist.There are no multiple powers for the Dragon's eye, it is the ability to absorb ki from everywhere and everything at all times. Of course you can use that ability in multiple ways but it remains only one use of ki. The dragon palm can use ki to heal wounds. Kago's dragon wheel makes the dragon gates spin, infusing flesh with ki(if it's lacking it such as dead flesh). His ability to control people has always been with charms and implies to me has nothing to do with his dragon gate since you don't need charms to make a dragon gate work. There is "magic" in Ten Ten, like Nagi's mom watching him fight Tessen, transferring Makiko's gates to Tetsuhito, etc. Tessen could transfer ki to water, Shidzuru transfers ki through her legs. Inue tranfers ki trough sound, Nokimi tranfers ki to parasitc insects. Shyoujyou copies ki and since in Ten Ten ki controls everything, it means copying looks and abilities but it's still just coying ki. Mataza's dragon claw uses ki to cut as does Kabane's, yeah Oh! Great draws neat swords so what it's still using ki to cut things. Why would he posiibly try to be sneaky about it when he's made it completely obvious?

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Post by Swordfish II » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:55 am

MrProphet, thanks for the extrapolation. I must ask: Where did you get the idea that all of these Ki-based powers must be complemented by some other power? Did you read this somewhere in one of the TT volumes, or the UJ Special, or someplace else?

kk1, thank you for your explanation, as well -- I like the concept that "simple is good", and your statements about viewing all these "Dragon's Gates" as simply different flows and forms of Ki is appealing. I also got the impression that Souhaku's ability to control people was based in magic, not in some red feather ability (since we saw those charms going up in flames upon the defeat of Madoka and Fu'Chien).

I am having fun trying to wrap my brain around this, and the last thing we need to see is this topic elevated to some sort of religious war. And I still think that OG loses track of things sometimes, little and not so little. Which shouldn't be surprising, seeing the scale and depth of the TT universe.

Cheers,

SF2

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:27 pm

Swordfish II wrote:MrProphet, thanks for the extrapolation. I must ask: Where did you get the idea that all of these Ki-based powers must be complemented by some other power? Did you read this somewhere in one of the TT volumes, or the UJ Special, or someplace else?
It's quite obvious to me by virtue of empirical observation.

Pretty much every Red Feather power that has been explained in detail so far has had a general application and a specific application (I've given examples above).

A general application always logically follows from the specific, and vice versa, so in the hindsight I would alwaqys think that it was obvious from the start. However, judging it beforehand isn't as easy as it might seem. Would you have know the general properties of the Dragon Fist by observing Souichirou in the first volumes where he uses it? Maybe, maybe not.
I also got the impression that Souhaku's ability to control people was based in magic, not in some red feather ability
Once again, step by step.

- There are 6 Red Feather clans. Each clan has several subordinate families under them.
- Each of the subordinate families have minor Dragon Gate that is a simplified version of the major Dragon Gate. We've seen that vis-a-vis Enmi's Dragon Pupil and Natsume's Dragon Eye.
- Inue Noriko and Mayutsubo Nokimi belong to two subordinate families of the Kago clan.
- Inue's Dragon Roar can compel people to follow her orders. Nokimi's ki manipulation techniques also can enslave people.
- Kago Souhaku has exhibited powers of mind control.

Those are all given facts. How hard is it to connect them?!

If Nokimi and Inue are from Kago subordinate families and they both possess minor Dragon Gates that give them powers of mind control, then it logically follows that the Kago family Dragon Gate ALSO can provide its user with some sort of mind or body control over other people.

We don't know what kind of power of control Kago has, but following this simple logic we can be certain that his power lies in that general direction. Isn't it like putting 2 and 2 together?

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Post by EliteF22 » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:30 pm

Ah, but you forget, Inue's is not mind control. She essentially turns her opponents body into that of a puppet, but she doesn't control their thoughts and will. Nokimi's is a little tougher to make out. We know she uses the leech to establish physical control over her victims, but what hasn't been shown is if their still conscious and aware of what's going on. So far with the blond girl, she appears more like just an empty puppet, with really no mental processing going on. If that's true, than that's another strike against the mind control hypothesis. The hidden larger ability of powers isn't so much as OG likes to surprise us, but extensions of the unique aspects of ki control, exhibited by each family. Sohaku's ability to send ki into others body and actually manipulate their flesh and his own, is a larger extention of what Inue's and Nokimi's powers are, which is logical and to be expected. The only time we've seen something akin to mind control is when he used those talismans on Madoka and Fu, which seems more like magic than his actual gates power and not logical based on what we've seen of his powers and Kago branch families powers.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:23 am

Souhaku's power has been explicitly stated and named the Flaming Dragon Wheel(spins dragon gates), so has Nokimi's the Koushin Dragon Gate(puts users ki into insects that are then inserted into a person bending their will to the user and causing them to exert enormous energy) . Why the need to speculate it's something else?

And please show me where Inue is related to Souhaku? Am I forgetting this is there a specific chapter that says this? She's not related as far as I know.
Anyway her power has also been named and explained also, the Dragon Roar sending her ki through her voice into someone's brain to control the hearer's body.

Three rather different powers if you ask me, don't really see how it implies Souhaku has mind control powers, also if you reread the chapter where Aya destroys Madoka's charm which Souhaku is controlling her with, Souhaku is using a shikigami. I've mentioned this numerous times before but as usual I'm ignored by far more knowledgeable posters :roll: , Souhaku seems to be an onmyouji mystic or at least use some techniques of an onmyouji(he's certainly been alive long enough to have trained with the best), one of these is the use of shikigami, spirits summoned to serve them often depicted as little paper cutouts(please see vol 12 page 41 going by Fugu's translation) and guess what one of their uses is? Big surprise to possess people. So (sorry Fugu) bite me Mr Prophet, you're wrong accept it and move on and stop trying to confuse people. :P

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:40 am

EliteF22 wrote:If that's true, than that's another strike against the mind control hypothesis.
I did say "mind and body control". The point is that the power of all 3 of them lies in that general direction.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:27 pm

kk1 wrote:...
I've mentioned this numerous times before but as usual I'm ignored by far more knowledgeable posters
I don't ignore your posts: I always read them. I think you and Mr. Prophet both know a lot about this stuff - more than I do, I can hardly keep up and just translate as I read along. I just enjoy it without too much thought, but I really like to see this discussion afterwards. It helps clear things up, and improves my translations of future chapters since it gives me a better idea of what is going on.

I see space to have multiple interpretations about the TenTen universe. It is interesting that Souhaku also looks like he's in touch with some older, more fantasy-style "magic" as well.

Anyway, I plan to start the translation sometime tomorrow. Work is busy, but I've got some time set aside on Saturday.

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Post by EliteF22 » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:32 pm

Mind control and body control are nowhere near the same thing. The general direction towards body control is there I'll agree with you on that, with Souhaku's clearly being the strongest type of control you could have over the energy flowing through ones body. There's nothing there to suggest any of them have a hint of mind control.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:07 am

FuguTabetai wrote:
kk1 wrote:...
I've mentioned this numerous times before but as usual I'm ignored by far more knowledgeable posters
I don't ignore your posts: I always read them. I think you and Mr. Prophet both know a lot about this stuff - more than I do, I can hardly keep up and just translate as I read along. I just enjoy it without too much thought, but I really like to see this discussion afterwards. It helps clear things up, and improves my translations of future chapters since it gives me a better idea of what is going on.

I see space to have multiple interpretations about the TenTen universe. It is interesting that Souhaku also looks like he's in touch with some older, more fantasy-style "magic" as well.

Anyway, I plan to start the translation sometime tomorrow. Work is busy, but I've got some time set aside on Saturday.
No prob, I wasn't really referring to you Fugu. I don't really want to argue but every single time I try to enlighten the readers of the forums Mr P has to come in and rip on me even though I back everything up and he usually is just speculating or misinterpreting the translation, you've seen it, it's just frustrating sometimes. :x

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Post by Dgames » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:02 am

- Inue Noriko and Mayutsubo Nokimi belong to two subordinate families of the Kago clan.
- Inue's Dragon Roar can compel people to follow her orders. Nokimi's ki manipulation techniques also can enslave people.
- Kago Souhaku has exhibited powers of mind control.

those aren't dragon gates are magic look to inue's thong she have things writen to control ppl Souhaku used those amulet's to control fu and madoka and nokimi uses the worms i don't think this are dragon gates this is magic!!
A dragon gate is a power that don't need a ritual and any objects to be activeted

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Post by Swordfish II » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:36 am

kk1, hey dont' sweat it so much. I think you make a lot of good points, and MrProphet's POV versus yours has certainly broadened the perspective of this humble grasshopper. :)

MrProphet, I can see where you're coming from with your observations, but it does seem that there are also some assumptions you are making in your viewpoint, as well as some items in TT that you don't include in your analysis. I am open to and appreciate your take on the various supernormal abilities that we see in the TT universe; they certainly enrich my perspective. However, I do tend to gravitate to the Occam's Razor principle with such things. And I do think Fugu's statement regarding this is right on the money:
FuguTabetai wrote:I see space to have multiple interpretations about the TenTen universe.
I concur wholeheartedly.

And last but not least...
Dgames wrote:Inue's Dragon Roar can compel people to follow her orders. *snip*

those aren't dragon gates are magic look to inue's thong she have things writen to control ppl
Good observation, Dgames; I must confess that I missed Inue's thong while reading TenTen. I did see her tattooed tongue sticking out out quite a bit though. :wink:

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Post by Kyu1982 » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:16 am

Well,
Let me clearfy Kabane's power.
Kabane does not summon sword.
It is more likely sword made of Kii.
This does not belong to Japanese manga. it is orginally started in Chinese manga (matial arts manga, this technique is one of the highest level technique among sword masters, very popular ability, and they get title like sword saint, sword demon, and etc) and still used by Chinese manga.
If i directly translate the name of technique, it is like "Sword without Form".

and, for Sohaku's mind control power that he used on Madoka.
as kk1 posted previously, Sohaku seems to be onmyoji. the time when Sohaku was bleeding, his spell was clashed by masataka and back fired(which seems to happen to onmyji when their spell fail, at least from movies).

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Post by MrProphet » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:53 pm

Swordfish II wrote:MrProphet, I can see where you're coming from with your observations, but it does seem that there are also some assumptions you are making in your viewpoint, as well as some items in TT that you don't include in your analysis.
Came by just to let you know that people are rioting (I'm not kidding) in the city where I live, so I don't really have the time to sort through all the Internet drama and personal anxiety here. I'll get back to you with my thoughts on the matter later on.

I hope you understand.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:01 pm

Kyu1982 wrote:Well,
Let me clearfy Kabane's power.
Kabane does not summon sword.
It is more likely sword made of Kii.
This does not belong to Japanese manga. it is orginally started in Chinese manga (matial arts manga, this technique is one of the highest level technique among sword masters, very popular ability, and they get title like sword saint, sword demon, and etc) and still used by Chinese manga.
If i directly translate the name of technique, it is like "Sword without Form".

.
Exactly what I said above "Mataza's dragon claw uses ki to cut as does Kabane's, yeah Oh! Great draws neat swords so what it's still using ki to cut things."
Thank you for clarifying it's origin though, it seems most of the concepts of Ten Ten Oh! Great took from somewhere else and he's just mashed them together with his own concepts like red feather etc., that's what I'm trying to get across, he's not being sneaky or pullling stuff out of nowhere, we're just generally unfamiliar with most of this stuff. If I hadn't watched Abenobashi I'd have no idea what an Onmyoji is and would have completelt missed that.

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