Fight 114

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

Moderator: FuguTabetai

User avatar
Strangler
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:25 am
Location: Limoges, France

Post by Strangler » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:59 am

It's a theory, but as far i'm concerned, the Takayanagi are the founding families, they might be able (even if they ignore it) to open all the gates too.

The Takayanagi are not White or Red anyway, they are over them... Even if Mitsuomi considers him clearly as a White (with only fighting abilities).

I do not think Oh Great! will use this possibility, but it's not told that the Takayanagi have no power.
Wandering star

DemonNeedle
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:51 am

Post by DemonNeedle » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:25 pm

If the Takayanagi clan can open all the gates, then any person, whether white feather or red, can open all the gates. Why wouldn't Dougen use this on himself if he knew about Ichiyou's plan for some time and make himself absolute? Talking about him being in control of this "God" when it comes back to earth- why wouldn't he just make himself that God? Masataka has shown where his limit may be and that's Mitsuomi. If he were to defeat Mitsuomi, it wouldn't prove that he's stronger than him since he just fought one of the, if not, the strongest fighter in the entire school.

Yeah, I don't think Masataka will be the True Warrior, but the actions that he takes will bring out the True Warrior. Just going on a hunch, but if he did become the True Warrior, I don't think this story will have a happy ending.

Just looking back at the chapter when they introduced the cube puzzle and Aya said there was always one piece missing. That was until she first saw Souichiro and saw that he was the final piece.

Another thing: How can someone be outside the ring of fate, yet be a piece in this whole chess thing? It doesn't make much sense to me.

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:25 pm

Strangler wrote:It's a theory, but as far i'm concerned, the Takayanagi are the founding families, they might be able (even if they ignore it) to open all the gates too.

The Takayanagi are not White or Red anyway, they are over them... Even if Mitsuomi considers him clearly as a White (with only fighting abilities).

I do not think Oh Great! will use this possibility, but it's not told that the Takayanagi have no power.
They can't, it's been stressed repeatedly over the course of this comic.

User avatar
kujoe
Sensei
Sensei
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:41 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Post by kujoe » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:15 pm

Well, white feathers can open gates too, and they can take their pick from all seven that are available to them, just not the specific red feather ones. Red feathers can take their pick from all seven plus an eighth gate. That is, if they happen to inherit the gate that is specific to their clan. (e.g., Dragon's Fist, Eye, Palm, etc.)

It's all hereditary for the reds, so it's also possible for a white feather warrior to have an 8th gate if his bloodline is mixed with some red feather family, such as Mataza (though his power seems to be regarded as that from a "lower" tier.) It's also possible to inherit the gate of a clan that's not from one's own, such as the case with Maya I think...(not sure).

The only question I have is if it's possible for someone to inherit two red feather gates from both parents of differing clans. So far, the manga has shown that a red feather child inherits the power from his or her mother, but I'm wondering if that's truly the case.

User avatar
Strangler
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:25 am
Location: Limoges, France

Post by Strangler » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:46 pm

kk1 wrote:
Strangler wrote:It's a theory, but as far i'm concerned, the Takayanagi are the founding families, they might be able (even if they ignore it) to open all the gates too.

The Takayanagi are not White or Red anyway, they are over them... Even if Mitsuomi considers him clearly as a White (with only fighting abilities).

I do not think Oh Great! will use this possibility, but it's not told that the Takayanagi have no power.
They can't, it's been stressed repeatedly over the course of this comic.
They think they can't, and it's very unlikely that they will.

But :
What it's been "stressed repeatedlyblabla" : The white feathers are warriors mastering an art. (strategy, navy...). The red feathers master religion and magic (volume 8). White and red feather can open elemental gates (wood, water...) and only red feathers can open "special gates" told "dragon gates" (fist, eye...).
As far i'm concerned, the takayanagi are over this logic. The Takayanagi are not white feathers nor red feathers.

Moreover, if you read carefuly about all the stories about Susanoo, about the Takayanagi... The twelve families come from the Takayanagi. So at the origin, the takayanagi is the first with the purest blood. Which also perfectly explains why they got and maintained domination over the families. If we keep on that logic, in the Takayanagi blood, you have all the power concentrated. Sohaku talks a lot about "reunion" and things like that...
Why don't they use it ? It's not because it's concentrated that this power is opened, is being shown or known. And after all, it all started 1000 years ago, it's enough to forget this.

So yeah, Mitsuomi, Masataka and even Doughen keep talking that they don't have those abilities. But once again, considering the legend, the past and the origins of the Takayanagi, I would not be so sure about it.
Wandering star

User avatar
kujoe
Sensei
Sensei
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:41 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Post by kujoe » Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:51 pm

Actually, the history of the families is a bit sketchy too. At one point the manga even mentions the Natsume clan to be the highest if I'm not mistaken, but that was so long ago that many don't even bother to remember.

And while the Takayanagi clan is currently on top of things, technically and traditionally, they still consider themselves as white feathers. It sort of fits with their philosophy and how Dougen and Mitsuomi continue to resent the reds. Well, Dougen seems to be ok now, but he was a scheming bastard back then.

Only time will tell, if one of their members will ever start opening some secret gate, but that in itself is against the kind of True Warrior ideal that the Takayanagi family has ascribed to. As far as they're concerned, Shin was the "demon" that a True Warrior must fight to exorcise. To become "demons" in order to exorcise or do battle with them isn't their way. Actually, that's what the Nagi clan demon exorcists do.

It's going to be very ironic if something like this comes to pass, not to mention in poor taste by the author especially at this point in the story when we already have Maya and the Amaterasu gate all of a sudden.

But well, you know... Oh! Great continues to remain unpredictable with these things, so who knows really?

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:34 am

kujoe wrote:Actually, the history of the families is a bit sketchy too. At one point the manga even mentions the Natsume clan to be the highest if I'm not mistaken, but that was so long ago that many don't even bother to remember.

And while the Takayanagi clan is currently on top of things, technically and traditionally, they still consider themselves as white feathers. It sort of fits with their philosophy and how Dougen and Mitsuomi continue to resent the reds. Well, Dougen seems to be ok now, but he was a scheming bastard back then.
No he wasn't he was the Natsume's dad's best friend, Dougen started this plan to eliminate the red feathers with him. And the Takayanagis aren't going to open any gates, if either of them wanted to they would have trained to and done so long ago. Their idea of the "true Warrior" has nothing to do with opening gates, Susano himself is never mentioned as doing so right, so why would they. Only his decendants. The only one whose idea of the True Warrior is someone who has all the gates is Souhaku(which he stated explicitly).

User avatar
kujoe
Sensei
Sensei
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:41 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Post by kujoe » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:18 am

kk1 wrote:No he wasn't he was the Natsume's dad's best friend, Dougen started this plan to eliminate the red feathers with him.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I think Dougen's plans back then reflected his world view from their world, especially when he was scheming to eliminate the red feathers and possibly further improve the status of his family with his True Warrior plan.
kk1 wrote:And the Takayanagis aren't going to open any gates, if either of them wanted to they would have trained to and done so long ago. Their idea of the "true Warrior" has nothing to do with opening gates, Susano himself is never mentioned as doing so right, so why would they. Only his decendants. The only one whose idea of the True Warrior is someone who has all the gates is Souhaku(which he stated explicitly).
I think we both agree on this point actually.

And I would like to add that if Masataka were to become the True Warrior, I would prefer it if he does so on his own merits rather than by opening some new gate.

IAS
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:16 am

Post by IAS » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:42 am

Yeah, I don't think Masataka will be the True Warrior, but the actions that he takes will bring out the True Warrior.
Exactly my thoughts, great way to write it down actually. Bob or Nagi?

A few things:

Japan is actually pretty small, in the past arc the "Sohaku machine" was in all of western japan, not only Osaka. Such efect will create a resonance in all of Japan. New machine has nesuxes in china, taiwan, and i think the polinesia.
Now i ask you kk1 how small japan is and how big the pacific is? The effect will only reach Asia and perhaps Oceania.

If a recall well Takayanagi blood line does not descend from Suzano, but it is said that Takayanagis had been the heroes in Japanese history (in an old thred i had suggested that takayanagi blood line descended from Tsukoyomi, taking in account the strong mythology/history base that tt has). Suzano is the only and original true warrior, he had all the gates red and white within him wich i think is a prequisite to become the tw. Why?, Masataka may have his insight, his technic but he does not hold true power. Meaning he can't see into the future, he can't raise the dead, etc.
A true warrior can't be one without true power, even with all the philosofy that shoud come with such state you need power to backed up.

Dougen said about the tw that his strengt shoud be so unmatched that nobody woud think about challenging him. I ask you again who is it more powerfull, a martial artitis with with an ultimate technique or a guy with god like powers (for example raising yourself from the dead, thus making you semi-immortal)?

About the amaterasu gate: in the past arc sohaku was portrait it with the gate's bearer inside a kind of magic circle so it requieres some kind of activation, at least entering the circle.

That everything i can think for now.

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:54 am

IAS wrote:
A few things:

Japan is actually pretty small, in the past arc the "Sohaku machine" was in all of western japan, not only Osaka. Such efect will create a resonance in all of Japan. New machine has nesuxes in china, taiwan, and i think the polinesia.
Now i ask you kk1 how small japan is and how big the pacific is? The effect will only reach Asia and perhaps Oceania.
You have to take into account how many red feathers are inside of it creating the resonance. Less than 6 compared to everyone in Japan.

IAS wrote: If a recall well Takayanagi blood line does not descend from Suzano, but it is said that Takayanagis had been the heroes in Japanese history (in an old thred i had suggested that takayanagi blood line descended from Tsukoyomi, taking in account the strong mythology/history base that tt has). Suzano is the only and original true warrior, he had all the gates red and white within him wich i think is a prequisite to become the tw. Why?, Masataka may have his insight, his technic but he does not hold true power. Meaning he can't see into the future, he can't raise the dead, etc.
A true warrior can't be one without true power, even with all the philosofy that shoud come with such state you need power to backed up.

Dougen said about the tw that his strengt shoud be so unmatched that nobody woud think about challenging him. I ask you again who is it more powerfull, a martial artitis with with an ultimate technique or a guy with god like powers (for example raising yourself from the dead, thus making you semi-immortal)?

First there are no "white" gates every human has 7 and reds have one extra. As for the takayanagi I'll have to reread.

IAS wrote: About the amaterasu gate: in the past arc sohaku was portrait it with the gate's bearer inside a kind of magic circle so it requieres some kind of activation, at least entering the circle.

That everything i can think for now.
Uhh the circle encompases all of Japan, Maya's inside of it unless she leaves the country.

User avatar
StridingCloud
Yuurei
Yuurei
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:28 pm

Post by StridingCloud » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:01 pm

has anyone thought of the concept that two people may be the true warrior, lets say both nagi and masataka?

IAS
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:16 am

Post by IAS » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:18 pm

You have to take into account how many red feathers are inside of it creating the resonance. Less than 6 compared to everyone in Japan.
Do you really think there are more red feathers now that there were in the past?.
Uhh the circle encompases all of Japan, Maya's inside of it unless she leaves the country.
So basically the resonance device shoud be active now, cause maya is in Japan... I was refering to the little circle sohaku and senhime were in when Aya ancestor challenged him, inside Osaka castle. The idea of the amaterasu gate does not need activation is frankly stupid, its still a gate and every gate requiere some kind of activation from the person whos trying to use the power. Really if things were that much automatic Sohaku woud had attain his objective a long time ago.
has anyone thought of the concept that two people may be the true warrior, lets say both nagi and masataka?
The tw seems to be a combinacion of power and wisdom, both unmatched. I guess that if nagi and masataka were to fight togheter they woud represent the tw. From chapter 1 its pretty clear that only one will remain at the end, but you really never now with OG.

btw fight 115 will be released in june right?

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Thu May 01, 2008 2:31 am

IAS wrote:
You have to take into account how many red feathers are inside of it creating the resonance. Less than 6 compared to everyone in Japan.
Do you really think there are more red feathers now that there were in the past?.
Yes, you don't? The population of the world and Japan hasn't increased? It's been stated red feather descendants are spread around the world now. And I was actually referring to how many are concentrated together in a single spot( they have to be in close proximity to create resonance). There were only 6 at the castle in the past arc( remember he was trying to attract more), Souhaku has more than a couple dozen gathered at Toudou.


IAS wrote:
Uhh the circle encompases all of Japan, Maya's inside of it unless she leaves the country.
So basically the resonance device shoud be active now, cause maya is in Japan... I was refering to the little circle sohaku and senhime were in when Aya ancestor challenged him, inside Osaka castle. The idea of the amaterasu gate does not need activation is frankly stupid, its still a gate and every gate requiere some kind of activation from the person whos trying to use the power. Really if things were that much automatic Sohaku woud had attain his objective a long time ago.
Uhh it is, thus the reaction of Fu(and the glasses guy "something must have happened in Japan") and Aya's "it's started". If it does then tell me where we see Senhime activating it, she was blindfolded and had no idea what was going on the one time. All it does is make ki flow in the opposite direction, what's there to activate? What did Souhaku do give her a cookie and ask her to activate it? Don't be frankly stupid. Why would he have attained it? The gate has only just appeared on Maya, it was dormant until now.

IAS
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:16 am

Post by IAS » Sat May 03, 2008 9:19 pm

kk1: i had prepared some kind of a comeback but frankly am tired of this, believe what you want. This has gone way offtopic allready.

Anyway anyone knows when next chapter is released?

User avatar
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:45 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Post by FuguTabetai » Sun May 04, 2008 9:52 am

It should come out on the 19th of this month, but since I'll be getting married on the 24th, then have a conference in Morocco, I don't really think I'll be touching any manga for a month or two.

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Sun May 04, 2008 9:20 pm

IAS wrote:kk1: i had prepared some kind of a comeback but frankly am tired of this, believe what you want. This has gone way offtopic allready.

?
Uh huh :roll:

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Sun May 04, 2008 9:21 pm

FuguTabetai wrote:It should come out on the 19th of this month, but since I'll be getting married on the 24th, then have a conference in Morocco, I don't really think I'll be touching any manga for a month or two.
Congratulations Fugu good luck and have a nice trip. :D

唯我独尊
Yuurei
Yuurei
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:23 pm
Location: Southern California

Much Speculations + Confusions...

Post by 唯我独尊 » Sun May 04, 2008 9:29 pm

Um... so yeah.. I was like reading this thread and gotten like really confused about the posts...

First of all, I read the Chinese version of this Manga published by Tong Li... I bought them all up to volume 17 now... $5.50 USD each. I also read online scans (pirated versions) just to catch up to most recent chapters.

Don't get mad at me for saying this but... 90% of the online scan English translations are just whack... believe me... Japanese translated into Chinese (translators hired by Tong Li) > Japanese translated into English (by unofficial translators who does it on their free time)! In short, I'm not talking smack about the people who translates this Manga into English, I'm quite grateful that they are doing it for free. However, I am simply saying Chinese sub (always always always for any f'king Manga/Anime ever created) is better than English sub.

Having said so... I just want to clarify some things real quick...

1. Susa/Susano (須左/須左男) = "The Ancestor" of Takayanagi family, if you are confused about this, please re-read it. From the beginning of the Manga, it was shown that DÅ￾gen is trying to make Mitsuomi into True Warrior. Later on in the series, Oh!Great keep hinting that the plan was actually designed for Masataka. Sort of make sense doesn't it? I mean true descendants of the True Warrior (Susa) cannot become the True Warrior just doesn't make sense to me.

True Warrior, the definition of it had been totally mixed up by the creator now and thus lead to many reader's confusion. True Warrior, from here on abbreviated for T.W., first T.W. is Susa (The man who owned all power from all families). Then.. it was speculated that SÅ￾ichirÅ￾ is T.W. because he had Dragon Fist... so if he was to consume all the power belonging to each family then he would become T.W. That concept isn't wrong, but no where did Oh!Great indicate that T.W. can't be achieved without Red Feather power. Instead, he kept on hinting readers that True Warrior is just a dominating fighter, a person who can dominate all powers.

i.e.
Beginning few chapters, when Maya gets kicked out of school, Nagi went to find trouble with ShikÅ￾bu (Executive Council). Nagi used his special Ki attack against Tawara, Tawara kicked Nagi's shoulder, rendering Nagi's special attack to nothingness... A perfect example of White Feather ability vs. Red Feather ability and White Feather wins.

i.e.
When Maya was fighting Kagiroi Tetsuhito (other than Dragon Eye, Tetsuhito had all Red Feathers powers), she basically rendered all of his special Red Feather powers obsolete. Because, she had the knowledge that when Tetsuhito uses Red Feather abilities, his Ki is glowing in a certain pattern on his body. This clearly proves that having all of Red Feathers powers = nothing. If a person of White Feathers is strong enough, also having the knowledge of "how to" defeat the Red Feathers powers, he/she can also become T.W. which just literally means a fighter that dominates all.

i.e.
When Masataka was fighting Madoka, the moment he beat her, SÅ￾haku's spell over Madoka was broken. SÅ￾haku was hurt from the backfire of his own spell. Then later that same day, the JÅ«kenbu (The Juken Club) was ambushed by Kabuto Katsumi's people and this time SÅ￾haku sent his second spell controlled person... FÅ« Chein. FÅ« Chein was a crazy mofo, after Masataka saved him from killing himself along with a few city blocks, SÅ￾haku's spell broke for the second time. SÅ￾haku got hurt again, bleeding from his head then to his hand... dropped to the floor.. then uttered these words: "Takayanagi... Masataka.... (actually... broken two of my spells... in one day...)... True Warrior... for real?"

So T.W. can be both from the Nagi family or Takayanagi family depending on who is the more dominating fighter, that's all.

2. I don't ever recall the Manga said Red Feathers having an eighth Dragon Gate. If some of you read it, I'd like to know which chapter/volume you saw it, I could verify it with my Chinese translated copy. Translation error perhaps? Because there are actually 7 Dragon Gates on a human body, which all carries a different type of power when "activated". With the exception of Kago SÅ￾haku and Senhime both of them owns a "special" Dragon Gate that is different from the original 7. SÅ￾haku's Dragon Gate is the power over death. He could control his own Ki that is spinning his Dragon Gate (as well as other people's Ki), as long as the Ki does not dissipate and keeps spinning the Dragon Gate then the person will live forever. As for Senhime, her Amaterasu’s Dragon Gate simply negates other Dragon Gate's powers, this is because all normal Dragon Gate's Ki spins to the right but her Dragon Gate's Ki spins to the left.

3. Let's not make so many speculations yet from interpreting the Chess pieces... com'on folks -_-;

DemonNeedle
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:51 am

Post by DemonNeedle » Sun May 04, 2008 10:47 pm

^A few Things:

1. That Ki attack that Souichirou was about to use against Tawara way back then, Tanshinkou or whatever you translate it into, wasn't a red feather ability. Anyone, as long as they know how to use Ki can learnthat technique.

2. Susa did have all the red and white feathers within him and they did say that Takayanagi was descended from his family, but so was all the other 12 twelve families. Also, as far as we know, the Takayanagi clan seem to be experts in unarmed combat: nothing special that can separate them from any other fighter in the series. It just seems that Red feathers get it easier because of their special abilities.

3. How do you know that your chinese scans are scanlated any better than in english? Not trying to get on you, I just want to know.

Dgames
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Portugal

Post by Dgames » Mon May 05, 2008 3:11 am



User avatar
Strangler
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:25 am
Location: Limoges, France

Post by Strangler » Mon May 05, 2008 8:06 am

Moreover, Fugu has always been fine with correction and very modest about his work. I find a bit pointless to say "English scanlations are crap" whereas you could simply help him in order to make them better.
It's a bit unconstructive.

And congratulation, Fugu. Sad for us about translation, but anyway :) Your happiness is much much much more important !
Wandering star

Dgames
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Portugal

Post by Dgames » Mon May 05, 2008 8:15 am

I won't sad about the translation since fugu happiness is much more important!!

Congratz Fugu!!!!!

User avatar
Hollowshingami
Doushi
Doushi
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:51 pm
Location: NA

Re: Much Speculations + Confusions...

Post by Hollowshingami » Mon May 05, 2008 1:41 pm

唯我独尊 wrote:
3. Let's not make so many speculations yet from interpreting the Chess pieces... com'on folks -_-;
Welllllllllllllll, since we have an idea, and don't know for sure, about the symbolism of the chess pieces I don't see the harm in the rampant speculation. It's been par the course given the nature of this manga.

User avatar
Dizzy
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:39 pm

Post by Dizzy » Tue May 06, 2008 12:19 am

This has been bugging me for a while so I figured I would ask and see what people think. Both Isuzu and Maya have expressed that tomorrow is going to be pretty big (Isuzu at the end of Ch110 saying Mitsuomi will die tomorrow and Maya during Ch112 saying tomorrow she will defeat him). But I've been staring at the tournament bracket from Chapter 109 and from what I can make out the Jyuukenbu represents bracket E which I found thanks to the characters Shin wrote down way back in Ch37 and is aided by the fact their next opponent is the AF support association which looks like bracket F to me.

Meanwhile the Executive committee appears to be representing bracket J (of course I can be very wrong here since I am going from some fugu scripts and no real ability to read the language) so the two groups can't actually clash until the finals in two days (makes sense, as this conflict has been what the series has been building to for years so why wouldn't you have it be the finals).

So if I am correct....how could Maya possibly defeat Mitsuomi tomorrow? It's just something that's been making me scratch my head for a few days as I go nuts waiting for the next chapter. Oh, and as for the chess pieces, I just have fun trying to figure out who best fits to what piece.

And of course Congrat to Fugu on the wedding!

User avatar
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:45 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Post by FuguTabetai » Tue May 06, 2008 3:59 am

Dizzy wrote: So if I am correct....how could Maya possibly defeat Mitsuomi tomorrow? It's just something that's been making me scratch my head for a few days as I go nuts waiting for the next chapter. Oh, and as for the chess pieces, I just have fun trying to figure out who best fits to what piece.
If you are fighting over the fate of Japan, there's no real need to wait until some tournament says it is time to fight. I don't think Maya was talking about a battle within the sanctioned school tournament.
唯我独尊 wrote: Don't get mad at me for saying this but... 90% of the online scan English translations are just whack... believe me... Japanese translated into Chinese (translators hired by Tong Li) > Japanese translated into English (by unofficial translators who does it on their free time)!
If you find any egregious errors, please let us know! Generally when my translations are poor, I put a note in the script. I'm also not too sure that you can make a sweeping generalization about the quality of translations like that, but I don't read much manga translated by other groups, and I don't read anything in Chinese so I'm in no position to judge.

As for getting married, I keep that stuff over on my personal blog, but there's a good chance I'll be later than usual in translating the next few chapters (since we're also buying an apartment, I'll be moving, etc.) so here's a heads up.

User avatar
Swordfish II
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 3:48 pm

Post by Swordfish II » Tue May 06, 2008 8:25 am

FuguTabetai wrote:I'll be getting married on the 24th
Wow, that's great news, Fugu! Congrats!

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Re: Much Speculations + Confusions...

Post by kk1 » Tue May 06, 2008 2:41 pm

唯我独尊 wrote:-_-;
For telling us the translations are whack you haven't really said anything that's different than from what we already know, where are the specific corrections? I don't see how anything you said is any different, and Nagi's mom explains the dragon gates in vol 9, honestly the whole gates thing has been very confusing and sparked lots of debate on these forums so if you think you can add something constructive please do.

DemonNeedle
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:51 am

Post by DemonNeedle » Wed May 07, 2008 1:34 pm

^ The first five gates represent elements, like in Hinduism. All of them are exactly the same except for the wood dragon gate which is actually the sound element or void element depending on where you're looking in Hinduism. The only ones we haven't seen are the top two gates. One of them refers to metal and the other wind. The actual chakras in Hindu beliefs state that the Metal Silk Voice Dragon gate represents time, intuition, and the light element while the Air Tiger Hidden Spirits Dragon Gate represents space and consciousness. It also seems that the characters that originally opened those gates also have the same characteristics as required to open them IRL:

Earth gate= Survival and instinct (Souichiro)
Wood gate = growth, communication, maturity (Maya)
Fire gate= willpower (Ryuzaki)
Water gate= sexual inuendo/ mood ( Tessen)

I would go on a hunch that Bob might be able to open or already open the metal dragon gate as it seems to go with his intuition and perception. The ATHSD gate I would say is the basis for using Ki. Back in the bowling alley where Maya put her forehead near Souichiro's damaged hands, it looked like she was using the ATHSD gate, transferring ki to him so his hands would heal faster (Not like the Hotaru Clan, but something different). It's just a theory of mine.

User avatar
Kyu1982
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 9:09 pm

Post by Kyu1982 » Tue May 13, 2008 9:38 am

Hmm, I didn't post for a long time.
Susa/Susano (須左/須左男): A forfather of 12 families. Father of Sohaku.
Amaterasu: probably sister or relative of Susano-oh, had power to neutralize power of Susano.
Tsukiyomi: He/She was not introduced yet. I am sure Oh Great will add this one soon. Because he is using Japanese myth, so he will add him in the future.

Takayanagi: this family does not seem to share a blood heritage with 12 main families. When we look at the status at Takayanagi HQ. There was a sculpture with phoenix standing above dragon. Dragon indicates 12 families and Phoenix indicates Takayanagi. My personal view, I think Takayanagi has a high posibility to be descendents of Tsukiyomi or at least not from Susano's line. Amaterasu's bloodline seems to join with Susano's at one point in the past, so we are seeing Maya with her power.
And, if Takayanagi was from Susano, they wouldn't use phoenix for the representation. They problably see themselves as another dragon whether they hold special power or not.

Mitsuomi: Want to remove special power from the world

Dougen: Want to create a being who is strong enough to control all the special power users.

Sohaku: Want to create a being that possesses all the special power and rule over other special power useres.

Three of them share similar path, but they seek different outcomes.

Masataka: So far, he is one of candidates for true warrior. possibly Dougen sees him as possible True Warrior who can replace Mitsuomi and lead 12 main families.

Nagi: A main character with no objective so far. Only objective that we heard from him, was to help his mother. He is worse than Ikki from Airgear. both of them are bone heads, but Nagi is worse.

And, do not apply real life definition to apply TenTen such as Hinduism.
OG only used some info from Hinduism, so you cannot expect him to apply entire concept into the story. Only people who can open gate is from 12 families, or by special method such as eye transplantation.

DemonNeedle
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:51 am

Post by DemonNeedle » Tue May 13, 2008 10:53 am

^ Who said only the twelve families could only the seven gates? Ryuzaki isn't a part of the twelve families, yet can use the yellow belt fire dragon gate. I remember back in Fight 53 that everyone can open the seven elemental dragon gates through meditation, experience, martial arts, or emotions. Who ever said that the way they apply it in hinduism is the same way they use it in TenTen? I was just saying that most of the personalities of the characters that opened gates are similar to the way they are opened in Hinduism.

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Tue May 13, 2008 11:19 am

Kyu1982 wrote:Hmm, I didn't post for a long time.
Susa/Susano (須左/須左男): A forfather of 12 families. Father of Sohaku.
Amaterasu: probably sister or relative of Susano-oh, had power to neutralize power of Susano.
Tsukiyomi: He/She was not introduced yet. I am sure Oh Great will add this one soon. Because he is using Japanese myth, so he will add him in the future.

Takayanagi: this family does not seem to share a blood heritage with 12 main families. When we look at the status at Takayanagi HQ. There was a sculpture with phoenix standing above dragon. Dragon indicates 12 families and Phoenix indicates Takayanagi. .
Actually the twelve feathers in the Phoenix's wings represent the 12 families, Dougen explained this to Mitsuomi, around the time of the coup I think.

User avatar
Strangler
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:25 am
Location: Limoges, France

Post by Strangler » Tue May 13, 2008 5:56 pm

Yes they do. "twelves feathers of the Phoenix", "six representing the warcrafts", "six representing religion and magic"
Something like that...
Wandering star

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Fri May 16, 2008 1:16 am

Strangler wrote:Yes they do. "twelves feathers of the Phoenix", "six representing the warcrafts", "six representing religion and magic"
Something like that...
6 for the white feathers , 6 for the red.

vphamv
Yuurei
Yuurei
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:37 pm

Post by vphamv » Fri May 16, 2008 12:17 pm

A bit late, but best of luck on the wedding and hope ya the best! :D

User avatar
kujoe
Sensei
Sensei
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:41 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Post by kujoe » Sat May 17, 2008 12:50 am

kk1 wrote:6 for the white feathers , 6 for the red.
That's the way I've understood it as well. Twelve families. Six of which are white representing warriors and heroes, and the other six are red representing "sorcery", rituals, etc.

Heh, this discussion is just making things even more complicated. From the white feather captain, the eccentric red feather priest, all the way to lowest henchman who was picked from the street, all has the ability to open these so-called seven gates. The reason it is said that the red feathers have eight gates available to them is due to the fact that they can possibly inherit a clan-specific, special gate (e.g., Fist, Eye, Palm and so on) that is not found among the known seven that are common to all. The reason why it's called an eighth gate is just due to simple math.


@Fugu,

Best of luck to you, and congratulations!

唯我独尊
Yuurei
Yuurei
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:23 pm
Location: Southern California

Ah... busy month for me...

Post by 唯我独尊 » Fri May 23, 2008 9:07 am



tkstka
Tamashii
Tamashii
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:52 am

Post by tkstka » Fri May 23, 2008 10:28 am

Humbly ask for raws ^^

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Fri May 23, 2008 4:39 pm

唯我独尊 will you be around to answer some questions back and forth about red feathers and gates like a back and forth q&a in a seperate thread so we can straighten this out and maybe even make it an anchored thread at the top of the forum. I'd like to discuss your translations vs Fugu's as I think a lot of what you're saying is right and would be helpful in explaining alot of the inconsistensies and misunderstandings the English traslation has caused compared to the original intent of the Japanese. As you can see from the forums Fugu's translations are not only used by English speakers but from many other countries whose second language is English so I think this would be very informitive and helpful. I'll be around all weekend so let me know.

Specifically I'd like to clear up the red feather powers vs "gates" etc. As I know one thing has always bothered me was when Nagi first uses his power in vol 9 vs Ishiyumi Tessen he opens the red dragon earth gate but uses the Nagi family "gate" the "dragon fist", thus making it seem he has 2 "gates" when your explanation seems to clarify this that he opened the one gate but channeled it's power through his family's special ability to create the Dragon fist which isnt a "gate" but a power. I would love to discuss much of what is said in that whole volume.

User avatar
kujoe
Sensei
Sensei
Posts: 661
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:41 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Post by kujoe » Sat May 24, 2008 1:41 am

Now that clears a whole lot of stuff! Some of which we already know, but it's nice to see all of these details come together. With a little more clarification, or fact checking that should be stickied for the sake of reference.

So, I guess for the sake of making sure:

Total known gates (so far?) = 9 (2 of which are unique)
White = 7 gates
Red = 7 gates + family power
Souhaku = has his own unique gate
Senhime = had her own unique gate

Am I missing something?

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Sat May 24, 2008 3:46 am

kujoe wrote:Now that clears a whole lot of stuff! Some of which we already know, but it's nice to see all of these details come together. With a little more clarification, or fact checking that should be stickied for the sake of reference.

So, I guess for the sake of making sure:

Total known gates (so far?) = 9 (2 of which are unique)
White = 7 gates
Red = 7 gates + family power
Souhaku = has his own unique gate
Senhime = had her own unique gate

Am I missing something?
Is Souhaku's power a gate or a power or does he have both since there are branch families of his(one of which we've seen) wouldn't their power be a derivative of his?

User avatar
Hollowshingami
Doushi
Doushi
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:51 pm
Location: NA

Post by Hollowshingami » Sat May 24, 2008 4:53 am

kk1 wrote:
kujoe wrote:Now that clears a whole lot of stuff! Some of which we already know, but it's nice to see all of these details come together. With a little more clarification, or fact checking that should be stickied for the sake of reference.

So, I guess for the sake of making sure:

Total known gates (so far?) = 9 (2 of which are unique)
White = 7 gates
Red = 7 gates + family power
Souhaku = has his own unique gate
Senhime = had her own unique gate

Am I missing something?
Is Souhaku's power a gate or a power or does he have both since there are branch families of his(one of which we've seen) wouldn't their power be a derivative of his?
In one of the previous chapters wasn't it mentioned he had a power/abiity, not a gate or a power specific to the Kago family, that was exclusive to him only? The guy seems to have been around for awhile so it 's not totally out of the realm of possibility. Especially given the events at the end of the distant past arc.

Dgames
Kouhai
Kouhai
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Portugal

Post by Dgames » Sat May 24, 2008 4:56 am

kk1 wrote:唯我独尊 will you be around to answer some questions back and forth about red feathers and gates like a back and forth q&a in a seperate thread so we can straighten this out and maybe even make it an anchored thread at the top of the forum. I'd like to discuss your translations vs Fugu's as I think a lot of what you're saying is right and would be helpful in explaining alot of the inconsistensies and misunderstandings the English traslation has caused compared to the original intent of the Japanese. As you can see from the forums Fugu's translations are not only used by English speakers but from many other countries whose second language is English so I think this would be very informitive and helpful. I'll be around all weekend so let me know.

Specifically I'd like to clear up the red feather powers vs "gates" etc. As I know one thing has always bothered me was when Nagi first uses his power in vol 9 vs Ishiyumi Tessen he opens the red dragon earth gate but uses the Nagi family "gate" the "dragon fist", thus making it seem he has 2 "gates" when your explanation seems to clarify this that he opened the one gate but channeled it's power through his family's special ability to create the Dragon fist which isnt a "gate" but a power. I would love to discuss much of what is said in that whole volume.

The nagi famil is the only family that can have more than 1 gate on his body, so he had 2 at that time, the dragon fist and the earth dragon gate :D

唯我独尊
Yuurei
Yuurei
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:23 pm
Location: Southern California

^__^

Post by 唯我独尊 » Sat May 24, 2008 9:35 am



User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Re: ^__^

Post by kk1 » Sat May 24, 2008 11:33 am



User avatar
FuguTabetai
Shifu
Shifu
Posts: 2587
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:45 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Contact:

Post by FuguTabetai » Sun May 25, 2008 11:08 am

tkstka wrote:Humbly ask for raws ^^
I've been scanning TJTG myself lately for my own text translation, but I haven't had a chance to scan anything since the issue came out. I just got married the other day, and now my wife and I are going to Morocco for a week (I need to present at a conference, so the timing works out well.)

I probably will start my translation sometime after the next chapter is released, so you should probably try to import Ultra Jump yourself unless you know of somewhere else to get scans. There is a French group that usually puts them out, so maybe they will pop up sometime.

唯我独尊 and KK1, good work trying to clear up the Dragon Gate stuff. I wish I had more time to read what is going on, but I haven't even had time to skim through the conversation yet. Maybe next month once things calm down. It looks like you are putting together some valuable information though, so thanks a lot.

User avatar
kk1
Bushi
Bushi
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 2:34 am

Post by kk1 » Sun May 25, 2008 12:02 pm

Thanks Fugu and congratulations hope you enjoy your trip :D

唯我独尊
Yuurei
Yuurei
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:23 pm
Location: Southern California

Post by 唯我独尊 » Tue May 27, 2008 1:00 am

No problem Fugu, I'm actually honored to be in this position to do explanations.

And congratulations on your wedding and honeymoon, hope you have a wonderful trip!

Post Reply