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Lovely.

There were another couple "suspicious" moments, but i let it slide. By the way, this is for volume 01 of Ikki ALONE.

http://www.theslayer.com.br/imagens/man ... _ikki1.gif
http://www.theslayer.com.br/imagens/man ... _ikki2.gif
http://www.theslayer.com.br/imagens/man ... _ikki3.gif

Manga doesn't get any crappier than Ikkitousen.

The_Shape wrote:http://www.theslayer.com.br/imagens/man ... _ikki3.gif

I think these two are closer:
Sample one
On the left is TenTen volume 2, page 174 (first published October 1998)
On the right is Ikki Tousen volume 1, page 44 (first published May 2000)

Other similarities which pop out at me without even trying hard to compare the two manga:

Sample two
On the left is TenTen volume 2, page 131 (first published September 1998)
On the right is Ikki Tousen volume 1, page 45 (first published May 2000)
Same pose, placement of fingers is identical.

Sample three
On the left is TenTen volume 2, page 100 (first published August 1998)
On the right is Ikki Tousen volume 3, page 70 (first published April 2001)

Sample four
On the left is TenTen volume 1, page 122 (first published March 1998)
On the right is Ikki Tousen volume 3, page 118 - I've flipped it horizontally (first published June 2001)

These two seem similar to me:
Sample five
On the left is TenTen volume 1, page 91 (first published February 1998)
On the right is Ikki Tousen volume 1, page 72 (first published June 2000)
Lower half of the body is the same, upper torso has been switched from left hand punch to right hand punch.

These last two aren't identical, but they are similar, and seem to draw from the same inspiration IMO:
Sample six
On the left is TenTen volume 5, page 125 (first published July 2000)
On the right is Ikki Tousen volume 5, page 144 (first published September 2002)

As you can see, on each occasion, the TenTen panel came first, by 18 months or more.

Also, the very beginning of Ikki Tousen, where Hakufu's mum blocks her punch using a pair of chopsticks holding a fish struck me as very similar to the beginning of TenTen where Masataka blocks Nagi's punch with a single chopstick.

Etc...

unbelievable, they're very similar to each other!

I know a lot of manga/anime have similarities with each other but this is just ridiculous.... How can they escape with this?!

My guess is that when a manga artist is drawing his panels, they refer to many other manga for inspiration. Given the number of panels to draw, I wouldn't be surprised if they would "borrow" framings and poses that they like.

Just a guess though.

fugu

There's actually more stuff. Those are just the ones that jump at you.

Good mangakas don't use other mangas as reference. You can use them to get a boost of ideas or something. But ripping off an image to the point of even the line-work looking the same is pathetic.

Hey, Natsume. Can i use some of your examples in my website? I wouldn't direct-link and i can post a link to your site as credit.

oh my goodness... ikki is such a rip off...
i was thinknig of reading ikki tousen but now i am giving it up

stealing people's work is disgusting... even though the excuse it 'borrowing' poses... the artist shouild have at least drawn it differently.
i draw alot of manga (or at least trying too :P) and i do use examples but i try to make em look different.

does anyone know where to download the manga?

go to manganews.net and look under 'I' you can find the links but you got to have Bit torrent (its better than irc .... in myopinion)

I absolutely positive that ikki didn't steal whole frames from TT. I've comparisons like this for the most ridiculous things. like comparing black cat to FLCL. yes the similarity is amazing but most of the time it is an ACTUAL fighting stance or just a common coincidence like the kicking thing. I mean really, do you think they actually looked at another mangak's work to decide how to draw a KICK. the thought that they would steal stupid stuff like that is to me totally ridiculous. I'm still 100% certain that it just happens that way and that it's cool to see but no reason to not check out a manga. I personally am gonna keep watching the Ikki anime and keep reading TT, this was a cool think to notice but doesn't really affect my opinion on either series!

FuguTabetai wrote:My guess is that when a manga artist is drawing his panels, they refer to many other manga for inspiration. Given the number of panels to draw, I wouldn't be surprised if they would "borrow" framings and poses that they like.

Other manga as well as a lot of other reference books as well, I'd think. Eg, perhaps architecture books when drawing buildings, anatomy books when drawing the human body etc.

I'm just guessing as well.

But I'd have to say that Ikki Tousen is the first time that a manga has really jumped out at me as having taken panels right out of another manga.

The_Shape wrote:Hey, Natsume. Can i use some of your examples in my website? I wouldn't direct-link and i can post a link to your site as credit.

Heh, yes, that's fine. Actually I was thinking of asking you the same question but I don't know when I'd get around to putting a page up on my site, you might as well go ahead and do it.

If you don't mind, when your page is up, could I refer to your page on the news page of my website...?

Sorry the scanning of the pics is so crap. I don't know much about computer graphics...

By the way, if you're going to use the details about volume, page, publication date, I'll just point out that when I refer to "first published" I mean the first time that chapter was published in the relevant manga magazine. Eg for my first pic, the TenTen picture was first published in October 1998, ie the November 1998 issue of Ultramp, whereas the Ikki Tousen pic was first published in May 2000, ie the July 2000 issue of Comic Gum. The publication dates are just quick calculations by me, so I can't guarantee they'll be 100% accurate, but they wouldn't be out by more than a month.

limubear wrote:oh my goodness... ikki is such a rip off...
i was thinknig of reading ikki tousen but now i am giving it up

I don't want to be taken as saying that Ikki Tousen is a complete rip off of TenTen. The_Shape may feel differently, though

Yes, some of the scenes are very similar to/the same as TenTen, but it's not like every panel has been copied. The storylines are different as well, though both involve fight tournaments. ie to me, the similarities are in the way particular scenes are drawn, not in what actually happens in the story. Ikki Tousen is lighter fare compared to TenTen. Also less sex but more panties Although Shiozaki (or his assistants) may copy from TenTen, I still like his artwork and character designs. (BTW, the Ikki Tousen anime is very mediocre IMO - I prefer the manga).

My main reason for posting on the TenTen/Ikki Tousen threads was not to bag Ikki Tousen, but rather because it was suggested Oh! great could have copied from Shiozaki instead of the other way around. I couldn't let that allegation stand

Give the manga a go if you're interested. I just don't like to hear people suggesting Oh! great copied Ikki Tousen

hi natsume maya... do you by chance own that manga news website... the address goes something like something.terminus.com.au

i only managed to find the first four chapters of ikki.. (so if someone knows where to get the rest of ikki... please let me know thank you...)

i've seen the anime and i agree that manga is tons better, also the drawings (quite good, I might add) in the manga is better than the anime.. hmmm, i think ikki and ultra maniac are examples of anime that i think are badly adapted from their respective mangas... i wonder why they cut/change so much from the manga...

i dont think that Oh Great's TT could have copied/borrowed Ikki, cos I think that TT came out around '96-'97?.... which is way before Ikki? (im not sure when ikki came out though)

limubear, yeah, that's the same person. Look at the sig.

GreatTeacherStone wrote:I absolutely positive that ikki didn't steal whole frames from TT. I've comparisons like this for the most ridiculous things. like comparing black cat to FLCL. yes the similarity is amazing but most of the time it is an ACTUAL fighting stance or just a common coincidence like the kicking thing. I mean really, do you think they actually looked at another mangak's work to decide how to draw a KICK. the thought that they would steal stupid stuff like that is to me totally ridiculous. I'm still 100% certain that it just happens that way and that it's cool to see but no reason to not check out a manga. I personally am gonna keep watching the Ikki anime and keep reading TT, this was a cool think to notice but doesn't really affect my opinion on either series!

You must be stoned. Look at the LINEWORK on some of those (like the the kick and the body). It's EXACTLY the same. I bet you can count the number of lines in the guy's pants and it will be the same! That's how much of a piece of crap Ikkitousen is.

Wanna proof?

Here's images, one over the other:

http://www.theslayer.com.br/imagens/mangas/ttikki.jpg

Coincidence, my arse.

Natsume, you can use mine if you want, if that's what you meant. I don't mind.

I'll let you know when i post it.

I read Ikkitousen up to volume 5, without noticing these similarities...
I must be dumb.

Ikki is a pretty poorly written work.
Already at volume 3 or so, you can see plotline breaking apart.
Similar titles like TJTG and Air Master are also pretty shallow, but they at least have some extensively researched materials and plotline.

But even after all this, I might still read the comic and watch the TV show.
Just for all the 'panchira' shots. (kiddng)

As for me, I can at least let it slide if the people working on Ikkitousen got a few ideas from TT for some poses but the problem is, they copied too many of them! Not only that, but the fact that there's someone who reminds you of Masataka in Ikki who does almost the same pose as Masataka himself doesn't help Ikkitousen's case at all.

I'm just giving my opinion regarding the visuals here so in terms of story that's for those who have read the manga to decide.

Like discussed before, i've used some of the images here:

http://www.theslayer.com.br/reviewmangaikki.htm

It's in portuguese, sorry. You can tell i had some fun with it...

I just have to say that after watching the first 4 episodes fansubbed, I've lost interest.

The story was going no where and to many things were going on for no particular reason.

And the girl which I can't even remember her name was stupid and annoying to me. "raging breast, raging breasts"

Why are they attacking her? "because I was told to" what the hell?
I can stand fanservice to a point but this show doesn't even have anything to back it up. It has good humor but thats it.

well it is part of the "destiny" i guess.. the old (chinnese?) history of the generales (?) or sumthin like that.. i started reading the manga, it was boring, i'm watching the anime now... the first episodes were pure crap... but in the 5 or 6 ep it was enjoyable i really liked ep 8, just my guess. I started reading the manga just because it was tt-like (?) but it's not even close to tenjo tenge.

Ikki Tousen is very much a Tenjo Tenge knock-off, a poorly-done one at that. Which is kinda sad because the character designs are not bad (somehow Ryomou look like Aoi in Ai yori Aoshi...).

One of the biggest fault of Ikki Tousen is that the plot is...well...almost non-existent. I'm sure many of us Otakus know about the Romance of Three Kingdom, but after watching Ikki Tousen (yes, I was stupid enough to DL all 8 episodes) I'm not sure if the person who does storyboard know what direction he/she wanted for teh story to go. Without the RoTK underpinning, the story pretty much falls into the stereotype Shonen (sp) fighting anime which is, in my opinion, way-overdone.

I think the director thought that ecchi should be the selling point of this manga/anime series (man, can Hakufu fight just ONCE without her clothes being ripped to threads? even though she's very well endowed and all...) and as Skullknight-san pointed out, too many things happen for no apperant reason. It would be fine if at least attempt were made to explain it on later chapters/episodes (like the past-arc for tenjo tenge) but it seems that the director doesn't even bother with that which, in my opinion, killed the whole series for me.

Anyhow, has anyone try to compare the characters of Ikki Tousen with Tenjo Tenge, for example, Hakufu with Nagi? ~_^ at least Nagi's clothes don't get ripped everytime he fights (although Aya will like that, I maight add...)

why should i care about this topic??

genderewooo wrote: why should i care about this topic??

You don't have to.

Ive seen a few more episodes of the anime for Ikkitousen and I must admit that the plotline it coming together much better than I expected. I can't read Japanese, and none of the scanslation folks that originally picked up the title have gotten more than a couple chapters into volume two, so I cannot speak to the content of the manga, but the anime appears to be following the Romance of the Three Kingdoms story, complete with several characters attempting to break away from their destinies to relive famous figures' lives.

Toutaku, Ryufu (Ryuhu), and Sonsaku are all Japanese names for character that had rather bad endings in the old RotTK story, and the fact that events are replaying themselves just like in the old story is the primary motivation behind most of the characters (either attempting to keep destiny moving in a way that is to their benefit, or attempting to steer fate in another direction).

Most of the comments here about the ecchiness and similarities to TJTG are well-founded, however.

now i want to read Ikkitousen :p

LAUGH - ikkitousen manga got licenced by tokyopop b4 tenjo tenge.

heh, the anime probably made it really popular!

Starakin wrote:heh, the anime probably made it really popular!

I suspect that the simpler artwork made it more appealing for US retail from the eyes of some businessman somewhere. Or maybe the folks behind TJTG's business end aren't as open to the us market (heck, maybe they know they have good product and won't settle for peanuts).

Who knows?

Having similarities is one thing, but rip offs are another. If you ask me, they could have change much more of the aspects of the scenes. It's obvious they copied the linework, which is NOT good. They have copied it, they could have at LEAST tried to make variants or deviratives of it. My question is, though, who copied who?

jacko wrote:Having similarities is one thing, but rip offs are another. If you ask me, they could have change much more of the aspects of the scenes. It's obvious they copied the linework, which is NOT good. They have copied it, they could have at LEAST tried to make variants or deviratives of it. My question is, though, who copied who?

Uh? It's been already mentioned that Ikkitousen's rip-off scenes came always AFTER the respective scenes in TT.

The_Shape wrote:

jacko wrote:Having similarities is one thing, but rip offs are another. If you ask me, they could have change much more of the aspects of the scenes. It's obvious they copied the linework, which is NOT good. They have copied it, they could have at LEAST tried to make variants or deviratives of it. My question is, though, who copied who?

Uh? It's been already mentioned that Ikkitousen's rip-off scenes came always AFTER the respective scenes in TT.

Okay. Now if that's clear, I'm not going to see Ikitousen. Besides, the art doesn't look too good from it anyway.

The_Shape wrote:Wanna proof?

Here's images, one over the other:

http://www.theslayer.com.br/imagens/mangas/ttikki.jpg

OMFG! They are the same!!! I mean, one thing is "being inspired" by a manga, and another thing is COPYING it!!!

Sephiroth out.

Well, looks interesting, but I think that if Oh Great! would care about that, he'd have sued the guys responsible for Ikki Tousen...

But hey, Tenjo Tenge at least is worth being copied, that's good

and I thought this could never happend. holy crap. For those who don't know rob liefield he's an american comic artist who literally takes other poses and copies it for his works. super highly unoriginal, but he has a cult fan base.

the same could be said for the creator of ikkitousen, especially since both TT and Ikki are fighting themed mangas. totally uninspiring work for the man who did ikki

Rob Liefeld did that? Wow. He even likes to draw characters with an overabundance of teeth for some reason --- and his anatomy is just too disproportionate for an American comic. No matter how many poses he copies, his work will still look awful anyway.

eXcuse..me...may i ask something? i,m just a newbie here...i wan to know what is the difference between TenTen...Ikkitousen..and Tenjho Tenge....3 different manga? or 3 of it is also the same? i,m quite confuse here....since the art are ALMOST(90%) the same....and last question here...it is from the same author? <---(OH! GREAT?)...Thanks In Advance!

TenTen is an abbreviation for Tenjo Tenge, the manga by Oh! Great. Ikkitousen is a manga by someone else (that has been animated as well) that is also, like Tenjo Tenge, a fighting school anime. Some similarities have been noted in certain frames of the manga, in each case Tenjo Tenge was published first.

fugu

ohh.....ok thanks....then the ikkitousen manga is currently up to wat vol. in japan?

Sieg Wahrheit wrote:ohh.....ok thanks....then the ikkitousen manga is currently up to wat vol. in japan?

It looks like there are 6 volumes of Ikkitousen total. I presume that the manga run is finished, as the anime version resolved the entire story in 12 or 13 episodes (I don't recall exactly off the top of my head).

Please note that any comparrisons between Ikkitousen and Tenjo Tenge in this forum are biased towards TT, as this forum is entirely populated by people who are following it religiously, waiting with baited breath for every release Fugu comes up with.

=/ I can't find Ikkitousen anywhere, but I have tjtg..

The site doesn't work that somebody posted.

morpherex wrote:=/ I can't find Ikkitousen anywhere, but I have tjtg..

The site doesn't work that somebody posted.

The series was licensed by TokyoPop, and will be released in America as "Battle Vixens" (wtf? That is such a stupid name.) You will have a hard time finding free downloads on the internet now, because most groups have taken them down.

Cheers,

fugu

well its a sucky anime thats for sure
dled the whole thing, 13 eps

tons of fanservice, couple of softcore scenes and even one lesbo (soft)

other than that this anime isnt worth a penny
the plot is so week a 3 yr old could beat it up
the characters are so generic, not even that, theyre beyond generic, they're cliche beyond imagination......
its not even the usual bad guy comes, new stronger bag guy comes, new even stronger bad guy comes. its mixed up adn messy and makes no sense.....
i regret ever watching the anime.

if there is one thing in this world that pisses me off, its a story without a purpose.
here, our heroin says she wants to fight stronger ppl. but keeps getting her ass kicked and then her 'power' comes out etc. ok thats cool then what?

FuguTabetai wrote:

morpherex wrote:=/ I can't find Ikkitousen anywhere, but I have tjtg..

The site doesn't work that somebody posted.

The series was licensed by TokyoPop, and will be released in America as "Battle Vixens" (wtf? That is such a stupid name.) You will have a hard time finding free downloads on the internet now, because most groups have taken them down.

Cheers,

fugu

I swear, I wanna slay everybody in the business of buying the license and bringing it into america. By time you know bout a decent manga, it's licensed. Same with anime.. Half way through the series, or it gets licensed RIGHT BEFORE the last ep.

morpherex wrote:I swear, I wanna slay everybody in the business of buying the license and bringing it into america. By time you know bout a decent manga, it's licensed. Same with anime.. Half way through the series, or it gets licensed RIGHT BEFORE the last ep.

If you think you wanna read it, buy it. If somebody were to license Tenjo Tenge for US release, good. Let the folks involved in making it in the first place make some more money off of eager readers that may not have found it by going to mangatranslation.com and then gone off to buy a copy in the original Japanese. I'm sure Fugu (whose hard work we all apreciate) wouldn't have too hard of a time finding another title to translate as his hobby.

If you don't have money for comics: get a job
If there are no stores near you that carry manga: get an address to mailorder to

If you have a job and an address and don't wanna pay, you're just a cheapskate and unworthly of any opinions you may hold.

morpherex wrote:I swear, I wanna slay everybody in the business of buying the license and bringing it into america. By time you know bout a decent manga, it's licensed. Same with anime.. Half way through the series, or it gets licensed RIGHT BEFORE the last ep.

I have no problems with the idea of manga or anime getting licensed, but the usual issue is translation quality. With regard to TJTG, Fugu has done a great job of turning TJTG into something that can be read in english, while trying to keep it faithful to the original work as much as he can. With my fading knowledge of only 3 years worth of Japanese studies, I really appreciate the work. But licensed manga is profit-driven with a specific "gaijin" audience in mind, so there's always a possibility of edits that might not be welcomed by some readers -- like name changes or whatever.

Nowadays however, companies realize that readers want something close to the original with minimal edits if need be. There are actually fine examples of licensed manga and anime out there. Take a look at Dark Horse's Lone Wolf and Cub and as for R1 anime -- The Twelve Kingdoms (aka Junni Kokki). Hard work and respect to the original do pay off. I find licensed manga and anime to be usually a "hit or miss" for most people, but if time is just your problem you can always get your manga fix in original Japanese.

kujoe wrote:

morpherex wrote:I swear, I wanna slay everybody in the business of buying the license and bringing it into america. By time you know bout a decent manga, it's licensed. Same with anime.. Half way through the series, or it gets licensed RIGHT BEFORE the last ep.

I have no problems with the idea of manga or anime getting licensed, but the usual issue is translation quality. With regard to TJTG, Fugu has done a great job of turning TJTG into something that can be read in english, while trying to keep it faithful to the original work as much as he can. With my fading knowledge of only 3 years worth of Japanese studies, I really appreciate the work. But licensed manga is profit-driven with a specific "gaijin" audience in mind, so there's always a possibility of edits that might not be welcomed by some readers -- like name changes or whatever.

I also think it is important to keep translations faithful. That is also why, with all of my translations, I also include the original Japanese so other people can decide for themselves if I did a good job or not.

I don't really publicize where those alternate versions are at, but they are there, and fairly easy to find...

fugu

Can anyone tell me a site for the translated, DVD anime?
for a relatively cheap price.
i wanna see wat its like.
(Ikki tousen)
or a site about Tenten

don't think Geneon is planning on releasin tenten anytime soon. but i think ikkitousen might be coming out soon, check ebay.

so who BORROWED who's idea?

ikkitousen ripped tenjo tenge.

What is Tenten even about? like ikki tousen, or just the art style?

a little out of topic here but if anyone is familiar with american comics, a certain name may pique parallel interest. Rob Liefield, renown comic artist is the king of character/line/pose ripoffs. He can't even create his own characters, or make up original poses. He seriously has jacked numerous characters and poses and didn't even give the original creators credit. In fact they're badly done.

Another off topic is that I have been hooked on Air Gear, another of Oh! great's recent works and I think he exacted revenge. There is a character in AG that looks like Ryomou from Ikkitousen, except he's a guy. If I can get my scanner fired up I will post a pic up for all to see. Its pretty funny. short hairstyle, similar eyepatch, and a nasty disposition with a twist.