story question: families?

Kagutsuchi · Post by **Kagutsuchi** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:02 pm

Hi everyone,

I'm new to TT, just picked up this series a few weeks ago and read it all pretty fast. Good stuff, heh. Anyhow, I was just talking to my friend about TT and there's something I really want to know (and can't seem to find it).

I could swear that at some point they mention that the Natsume family used to be the only one "born higher" or "ranked higher" than the Takayanagi family, or something along those lines. I believe... Mitsoumi was the one that said this...

Can anyone back me up on this issue? Or am I just making all this up? It'd be great if anyone could find the exact page for me to refer to if it is true =P.

On a totally unrelated side note, I'd say Masataka is my favorite character so far. I can't believe they didn't show how he met Maya and the Jyuukenbu. Plus, other things about Masa left totally open ended. From his fight with Nagi and at the bowling alley too, it seems to hint at him having some sort of hidden... murderous rage beneath his nice-guy-exterior. I can't wait for him to really go wild. What are you guys' thoughts on this?

Kagutsuchi · Post by **Kagutsuchi** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 10:46 pm

Blah, looks like I hunted down the answer to my own question. And it's in Volume 3, Ch. 19 - pg. 191.

Doesn't seem like a significant bit of info but I hope it plays into the story somewhere down the line. Seems like it should anyhow...

Fulsion · Post by **Fulsion** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:59 am

From his fight with Nagi and at the bowling alley too, it seems to hint at him having some sort of hidden... murderous rage beneath his nice-guy-exterior. I can't wait for him to really go wild. What are you guys' thoughts on this?

Volume 11 looks like it has a lot of him + Bob fighting...

pv82 · Post by **pv82** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:55 am

I also think Masataka is great, he is the most overlooked person in the whole manga. I feel like Oh! Great doesn't have any good plans for him in the future. He may show his true strength but I won't be anything compared to Nagi or his brother. He's the kind of character that is easy diposable, like is a big fight goes down, he might fight a semi important character and either end up sacrificing himself or getting really hurt for someone else just to move the story along. I really hope the next few volumes proven me wrong.

Kagutsuchi · Post by **Kagutsuchi** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:19 am

Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious that Souichiro and Aya will be the strongest in the end... only because they started out the weakest and happen to be born with powers. Sure, they try to make it look like they work hard... but I still see it as practically cheating. Just like the cheapness by which Naruto or Goku manage to miraculously pull out a new attack or summon the Kyubi's chakra or genki dama or whatever the hell else.

When TenTen finally comes to an end, I wouldn't be surprised if Masa gets the royal shaft too. Natsume family used to be the ruling family, as I said earlier. I bet after Mitsuomi goes down, Masa will... either be dead or for whatever reason, let Maya or Aya take over.

But as far as we've seen in the manga, I still feel like Masataka is the 2nd strongest of the Jyuukenbu. Yeah, yeah Nagi can open a dragon gate but he just doesn't seem that strong to me. Masa seems to be a lot more insightful, for one thing. Good example is when he tells Bob he can be strong naturally, since spirit attacks are "predictable and leave a lot of openings." Tawara proved that when he stopped Nagi's forged needle.

Hopefully they don't leave this as another loose end in the story. I think that one line alone kinda opens the door for Masa and Bob (who seem like a great team to me) to really become strong in their own way. Like Rock Lee on Naruto. Great character... he got the shaft though >_<. I only watch the anime, I don't read ahead in the manga so I'm still hoping Rock makes a comeback.

Just my thoughts on that. Comments?

pv82 · Post by **pv82** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:45 pm

Yeah, Kinda of the subject Sasuke should be the lead character of Naruto, he gets the same bum rap. Yeah he's a big jerk who's more concerned with killing his brother than repopulating his clan.

But personally to me he has more depth than naruto. As does rock lee who isn't a ninja genius, but opens the gates because he's a fighting genius. What's up wit dat!

Kagutsuchi · Post by **Kagutsuchi** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:20 pm

I like Sasuke too, but he seems a bit overpowered to me. Sharingan is comparable to "cheating to get stronger" like I mentioned earlier. Plus the fact that he got as fast as Rock in ONE MONTH, where I think Rock said it took him YEARS of training. So very unfair...

I wouldn't say Rock is a "fighting genius" at all. Remember he was last in his class and called a drop-out at the academy. Of all the genin, he's the only one who knows how to open chakra gates because Gai-sensei didn't teach anyone else. (Since it's a dangerous, self-destructive technique and all.)

In flashbacks it shows him doing hundreds upon hundreds of push ups, sit-ups, and kicking/punching that log. "Genius" is something you're born with (in the english definition anyway), and he definitely wasn't born fast/strong/smart.

In short, Rock seems more like a real-life person to me... Bob, Masa and *maybe* Maya also more beliveable as people than a fighting machine like Nagi. Aya is alright, though a bit shallow of a character.

Press_Disposer · Post by **Press_Disposer** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:35 pm

Note that Sasuke uses a WHOLE lot of stamina just to keep up that speed. the guy was panting like mad during the gaara fight before the protective shell started up. Also, Rock surprised KAKASHI with the opening of the gates, so much so that he had to use his Sharingan, so he's definitely talented...maybe he is a fighting genius. but perhaps it's better if he doesn't know it. And as far as Lee getting the shaft, well I don't want to spoil it for you so if you want to know just tell me...and i can tell you. If you read the manga you will know.

We are horrendously off topic, by the way.

Post by **FuguTabetai** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:58 pm

Ah, Ninja, panties, it's all good.

Actually, I've never seen any Naruto manga or anime. I would like to catch the anime, if I had the time. But I'm too busy to track it down on the web, not interested enough to buy it if it is commercially available in the states.

If some channel (Adult Swim / Tech TV / etc.) started to broadcast it, I'd set my tivo-like cable box to snag it, but... Sounds like it is good though.

Probably would be better for me to watch in Japanese though. I alway start second guessing the translation. (Love the subbed shows.)

fugu

pv82 · Post by **pv82** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:56 pm

U should read the manga. Although the anime does a good job of staying true to the manga, the are things cut out due to it getting a prime time slot, Hope fully TT while stay true

Kagutsuchi · Post by **Kagutsuchi** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:29 pm

Also, Rock surprised KAKASHI with the opening of the gates, so much so that he had to use his Sharingan, so he's definitely talented...

Well, I'm too lazy to rewatch bits of the anime... but I have good memory

Rock's Omoto Renge and Ura Renge are "forbidden techniques". Plus these techniques are meant to be taught together with the opening of the chakra gates. All 3 are forbidden for being dangerous/reckless to use. Seems to me Kakashi is more surprised he even knows a forbidden techinque, since they aren't supposed to be taught. Not so much surprised that he's able to use it well. Wouldn't anyone else be moving that fast if they could open gates?

I'm sure not every character could learn it, and it does say Rock learned it faster than Neji even. Talent? Maybe, but I prefer to think he worked for it and really just wanted it more than Neji. Differences in effort are probably why he learned it faster.

Anyhow, these things never really have an answer. Plus I like to debate anime/manga storylines, haha. I could go on all day...

Kagutsuchi · Post by **Kagutsuchi** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:41 pm

Another related note: Gates in Naruto vs. Gates in Tenjo Tenge

Anyone know who came up with the idea first? Did both take the idea from a ancient martial arts concept or something?

Both have similarities and differences. Similar in that they increase user's strength and fighting ability. Both harm the users with after-effects. And I *think* the diagram on Naruto and on TenTen show them as being in the same place of the body (along the spine).

Gates on Naruto say it removes the safety limits of the body, pushing it harder and allowing more chakra flow. This ends up with broken bones, torn muscles, etc. due to the stress of it.

I don't quite understand the Gates of Tenjo Tenge. This is what I think though. The user gathers spirit and "feeds it" to the dragon, which is something alive but not a part of him/her. The dragon then gives the user powers, but in return it physically eats them...

Can anyone give me any insight on this?

Post by **FuguTabetai** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:05 pm

The concept of a Chakra is an old indian one (I believe) - anyway, the "Gate" is Tenjo Tenge is also called (in ruby) "Chakra" sometimes, so they are referring to the same thing.

I can't give you more details though, because honestly, I don't know much about ancient mysticism.

Kagutsuchi · Post by **Kagutsuchi** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:29 pm

Yeah, it does really seem like the refer to the same thing. Thanks for confirming it.

Sorry for all the complicated questions, but I have one more for you Fugu (or anyone else). I really don't understand the difference between "chakra" and "ki"... if there's any difference at all. This is what I do know, from manga anyhow.

Naruto describe chakra as energy generated from the body's cells. It's built up by fighting experience and training... so I'm thinking it's more of a physical thing?

In Kenshin manga they say Soujirou doesn't have any of the 3 types of Ki. No "fighting-ki" since he doesn't feel joy, no "killing-ki" because he doesn't feel anger and no "sword-ki" also. I guess these are more tied to a person's state of mind? Seeing as how they seem to NEED chakra to fight (on Naruto) but Soujirou fights really well with no ki, ki doesn't seem to affect performance.

Of course the differences could've been created by the authors but who knows. I get confused with chakra vs. ki all the time so I'm just tossing out this issue for discussion.

Fulsion · Post by **Fulsion** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:00 pm

Hope this isn't too OT, however :

Fugu/Anyone else interested in Naruto manga -> www.narutofan.com has all the manga up to the latest issue (currently 210), very good quality and translations by a group called Inane. If you like the series you will love the manga, everyone who has seen the manga will agree, they cannot wait for the anime to catch up, it gets very cool later on (hopefully they stop doing all these useless filler episodes and changing animation teams, in that way it is becoming a little like DBZ and you can really tell the difference from the early episodes)

For the Naruto anime you can just grab it off Bit Torrent -> currently ANBU/A-One (most would say they do the best quality/fansubs out of all teh groups) are releasing Naruto episodes in a 10 episode torrent format (1-10, 11-20 etc) Right now you can grab it off www.downloadanime.org or http://www.gotwoot.net/torrents.php (now you just have to make sure you got enough HDD space

)

solidis1 · Post by **solidis1** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:12 pm

Well Kagutsuchi, you seem to know quite a bit already. I, just as you do, know a little about ki and chakra from manga and anime so maybe this will help further your ideas.

Ki seems to be more of an eastern philosophy on it's own but it is given different names in different parts of the world. Dragonball manga focuses heavily on Ki but I think it was translated as "power" or "energy". While I don't know japanese this might actually be what it means. Americans, most of them anyway, don't know what Ki is and energy is more understandable for them. Be it fighting energy or for knowlege.

I think Chakra is an indian philosophy and it might mean the same thing as ki or it might not. I'll bet all of this goes back a long time and every bit of info would cover pages and pages.

I really don't mean to be all philisophical and act like I know what I mean, but I just thought to share some of the same knowledge on this just as you guys did.

Fulsion · Post by **Fulsion** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 10:39 pm

My take on Chakra vs Ki -

Chakra => Origins lie with Sanskrit (ie Indian). The basis is physical, "EVERYONE" has Chakra. The word means "disc" or "wheel", each wheel being an "energy centre" that resides in the body. By training (eg physical/mental/spiritual whatever) or using special techniques (eg meditation) one can focus and activate this energy. It might sound a little BS, but actually, IRL, Yoga and Chinese acupuncture have similar concepts in focusing your "chakra flow" throughout your body.

In TJTG and Naruto focusing their chakra would enable "special moves" which would otherwise be impossible (and lets go back to Rock Lee, he's all "taijutsu" => physical moves/attack based since he has little or no chakra for "special moves". Even when he opens up his gates it's only his physical attributes that increase (albeit they do go superhuman)

Ki/Qi/Chi

Also present in everyone (and everything). However unlike Chakra it isn't in the body, it's more of a spiritual/mental energy, a "life energy" if you will. It's much harder to describe though, because of the scale of which it is used (for example, pretty much ANY martial art will have something to do with Ki). Using the most common MA example, by intense concentration and breathing you can summon Ki to accomplish those "superhuman" moves (eg IRL examples being breaking various hard objects like concrete/wooden blocks, incredible strength (ever see a Shaolin monk carry a wooden table complete with tea and cups to his masters... with his teeth only O_o), incredible resistance to pain eg Shaolin "Iron Cloth" style where the subject is pricked/slashed beaten with various instruments such as swords/maces/spears and end result is he is still fine while all the swords and spears are broken). I think here is where the line blurs between Chakra and Ki (almost any martial arts film/anime/practice will have some kind of "energy" summoning/usage).

Anyway, going back to Kenshin's example, Jap swordsmanship's Ki is not only just for fighting, but to "feel" your opponent (and it's not limited to just Swordsmanship either). Souchirou possesses no "Ki" so the problem for Kenshin was he couldn't "sense" him. Similarly, if you've seen the recent (blockbuster disaster) movie "Hero" (starring Jet Li), the part where he's confronting the emperor, the emperor says "your murderous ki is giving your intent away to the flames" (you see Jet Li's character kneeling some distance away, there are many candles before the emperor and they are all flickering back in his direction). Last example is (for lack of a better one) DBZ. Everyone's seen it, some guy is flying through the air and suddenly turns around and "senses this incredible power" => that too is a manifestation of Ki.

However, like I said, Ki is very hard to define, and being a "life energy" that it is, you can also cultivate it through a healthy lifestyle and proper breathing, for overall better health if no other reason. Most meditation practices also use the "Ki Cultivation" concept for their goals (usually something formed around "spiritually reaching a better place". In this way Ki covers a much broader area, but hopefully now you can see some difference between Ki and Chakra

Kagutsuchi · Post by **Kagutsuchi** » Thu Apr 01, 2004 4:41 pm

Thanks guys. Very interesting stuff, for me anyhow. I feel enlightened by your post Fulsion-sensei.