8 Years Ago.....SPOILERS

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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8 Years Ago.....SPOILERS

Post by Chello »

Wow this really got interesting.

I flipped through my Volume 11 book a few times since coming back from Japan, but reading Fugu's Translations while looking at it are revealing a butt load of cool stuff!

I am not sure if he has translated farther than this, but it is the last thing I read before the html page ended.

Nagi Makiko tells Maya and Tsumuji Sr. that her powers started to yearn for more 8 years ago. Maya says this is the same time where Shin learned how to "control" the Dragon's Eye, and Tsumuji says his son Mataza (F) was able to use the Dragon Claw 8 years ago too....

Do all of these red feather powers tap into some mysterious force or something?

I have to say, Oh Great! continues to impress me. It seemed like he was making up this story as he went along, but now maybe he has some bigger picture in mind.

Do you guys who are reading the single chapters in Ultra Jump know anything about this?
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Post by kujoe »

Chello wrote:Do all of these red feather powers tap into some mysterious force or something?
Don't the powers of the red feathers resonate with each other? I think this is mentioned in somewhere in the fight between Nagi and Tsumuji. Even Aya mentions this.
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Post by FuguTabetai »

When many red feathers gather together, there is a resonance effect, and their powers feed into each others, so they all become stronger.
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Post by Chello »

I'm looking forward to the school tournament even more now. Imagine all the Red Feathers from "F" and a few from Jyukenbu (Nagi and Aya I guess) all in the same area, they would be uber strong in that case.

I am not sure if the Takynagi's factor into that or not, kind of unclear about where they get there abilities from.
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Post by kujoe »

If the tournament is going to be filled with a lot of red feathers, then the fights are definitely going to be wild. Just imagine all of them resonating in one place. The more "white feathered" characters, such as Maya, Bob and Masataka are not bad either--though I predict there's going to be a slight imbalance initially.

Personally, I enjoy the fighting scenes between "white feathered" characters more. It's more physical, or "in your face." Then again, the Nagi vs. Ishiyumi fight was also awesome in its own way. Not to mention that part where Tsumuji (F) got his arm broken in vol11 by Nagi's black dragon--that one was pretty cool too.
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Post by MrProphet »

Technichally, Maya is a Red Feather. She just cannot open her family's Dragon's Gate. But she can channel spirit.
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Post by zip »

well masataka can do it too. so is he a red feather too??
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Post by AdrianWerner »

zip wrote:well masataka can do it too. so is he a red feather too??
YOu don`t have to be a red feather to use spirit.
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Post by MrProphet »

Masataka is Takayanagi, which makes him both a red and a white, and at the same time - neither. But I assume that he can channel spirit (ki, whatever) into both magic (like the Reds) and martial arts/weapons (like the Whites).
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Post by Chello »

Yeah the Takynagi's are all just awesome. Both Mitsuonmi and Masataka appear to use more fighting techniques now than magic. I don't think I recall either of them using some sort of magic...

Maybe they were a White Feather type family who climbed to the top of the system through hard work or something.

Didn't Mitsuonmi say before that the Natsume family used to rule? Or was he just talking about Shin being the president at the school? That was one of the earlier chapters.
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Post by burrowowl »

Chello wrote:Maybe they were a White Feather type family who climbed to the top of the system through hard work or something.

Didn't Mitsuonmi say before that the Natsume family used to rule? Or was he just talking about Shin being the president at the school? That was one of the earlier chapters.
That's my theory. The Natsume family used to be the top-dog in the "martial arts association" as it is sometimes called. Now the Takayanagi family is. This would support the idea that the Takayanagis are one of the White Feather families. Mostly because we know the names of all of the Red Feathers (the major lines, at least, and I doubt the Takayanagi family was a lesser line), so with the presumption that they aren't a "new" family, they probably came from the White Feathers.

I'm quite please by the introduction of Kabuto (F), after being previously exposed to his father in Volume 9.
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Post by MrProphet »

No, no, no.

Takayanagi has always been the head family. They are the head of the Phoenix. As for magic, well, tell me Forged Needle is not magic!

As for Natsumes, well, they are a Red family, i.e. they use ki for magic, but the latest generation of Natsume's have been very bad with it. They have either gone mad from magic and never explored it, like Shin and Aya, or were just unable to open the Dragon's Gate. Still, they are NOT the fighting whites. They are simply Reds who forgot how to do sorcery. After all, the primary function of the Dragon's Eye is to attune and synchronize its user with the rest of the world. Using the Dragon's Eye for fighting and predicting the enemy's moves is purely coincidential and is just a bonus.

And lastly, I think you are confusing the Takayanagi Phoenix and its 12 Clans with the Toudou Gakuen Enforcement group. Those two are totally different. It's true that Shin was the school president before Mitsuomi, but in the clan hierarchy Takayanagi was always senior to Natsume. They just haven't brought it up, because they were simple school kids and the fighting way of life in the school was more important to them that family structure and other hierarchies.
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Post by Chello »

I know the difference between them. Look back when Mitsuounmi first shows up and starts talking to Maya at the bowling alley.

He makes a comment how the Natsume family was even higher than the Takyanagi family in the past. That whole feathers for the Takynagi Flying Phoenix thing could have just been a recent development. Perhaps Dougen did that when his family first came to power, he does look pretty old after all.
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Post by Tristan »

That's not exactely true, if you look back at the Enma clan member as they scream and curse Tsujumi.. don't they refer to a pactl made roughly 150-170 years prior and how it was betrayed? Where they swore to follow the Takayanagi clan or such.. which is about the time of the end of the Edo period.
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Post by burrowowl »

Chello wrote:He makes a comment how the Natsume family was even higher than the Takyanagi family in the past. That whole feathers for the Takynagi Flying Phoenix thing could have just been a recent development. Perhaps Dougen did that when his family first came to power, he does look pretty old after all.
Perhaps it is a reference to Dougen's small physical stature. Shin, Maya, and Aya's father was rather tall if I recall correctly...
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Post by Kagutsuchi »

I pointed out this fact before, in a different thread.

Natsume family was definitely higher born than Takayanagi in the past. This is a fact, totally concrete. Anyone looking for the evidence: refer to Volume 3, Chapter 19 and Page 191.

It's all there in stone. They say Natsume was "born higher" and also talk about servitude. Not referring to physical stature or anything else.
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Post by burrowowl »

Kagutsuchi wrote:It's all there in stone. They say Natsume was "born higher" and also talk about servitude. Not referring to physical stature or anything else.
perhaps the Natsumes were from Nikko and the Takayanagis were from Mitaka, closer to sea level? :)
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Post by kujoe »

MrProphet wrote:Takayanagi has always been the head family. They are the head of the Phoenix. As for magic, well, tell me Forged Needle is not magic!
The forged needle is not magic. It's a technique of the Takayanagi's own brand of martial arts. In fact, Nagi is able to pull it off because it's the first move that he was able to learn from the reverse striking training that he received from Maya.

In the past arc, Mitsuomi accuses Shin of "stealing" the Forged Needle. Moreover, Maya herself is a red feather, but she's more "white feathered" in the sense that she didn't inherit the powers that the Natsume Clan is known for.
burrowowl wrote:That's my theory. The Natsume family used to be the top-dog in the "martial arts association" as it is sometimes called. Now the Takayanagi family is. This would support the idea that the Takayanagis are one of the White Feather families...
I also think along the same line. I believe the Takayanagi are really one of the white feathers originally. From what we've been shown so far, it certainly looks that way. The Takayanagi can't be both--you're either red or white, you either marry into your spouse's family or your spouse marries into yours. That's how I see it anyway.
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Post by MrProphet »

kujoe wrote:The forged needle is not magic. It's a technique of the Takayanagi's own brand of martial arts. In fact, Nagi is able to pull it off because it's the first move that he was able to learn from the reverse striking training that he received from Maya.
That's only because Nagi himself is a Red Feather, thus he can do all of his magical powerups (just like Shin and just like Mitsuomi). A normal human like Tawara, on the other hand, cannot do things like that, even though he can control spirit.

Which suggests that the Red fighting abilities are more magic than martial arts.
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Post by kujoe »

Actually no. You can take a look at that Nagi vs. Sagara fight and take a look at how Maya explains the nuances behind it. Furthermore, the powers of the red feathers are specific to each clan and are very much passed on from generation to generation. If the forged needle in itself is a red feather ability, it won't make sense why Mitsuomi accuses Shin of "stealing" it. In other words, the forged needle can be learned. And besides, why would Masataka be surprised at Nagi's unexpected development when he watched him practice? I doubt that he understood or even knew about the consequences of Nagi's red feather origins during that time. Tawara on the other hand, is able to prevent Nagi from pulling it off because he understands the mechanics behind its execution.

The foundation of the forged needle is somewhat based on reverse striking. Based on such a concept, a person is also able to strike a specific area from any location by channeling his or her ki. Even Masataka is able to pull off the same move against Madoka--right through Bob.

As for the red feathers, I think they're also very good in martial arts. Martial arts is, after all, just one of the many ways through which one is able to cultivate one's ki and spirit. However, because of the diverse conditions placed by their powers, there are also other avenues open to them. The Enma Clan doesn't look like a family pursuing martial arts per se, and the power of the Dragon Palm--which heals--suggests another way of life. In fact, the Nagi Clan are considered as "exorcists." The white feathers on the other hand, seem to be solely in pursuit of the arts of combat and martial traditions. Basically, it's like comparing mystics and warriors who complement each other.
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Post by MrProphet »

kujoe wrote:Actually no. You can take a look at that Nagi vs. Sagara fight and take a look at how Maya explains the nuances behind it. Furthermore, the powers of the red feathers are specific to each clan and are very much passed on from generation to generation. If the forged needle in itself is a red feather ability, it won't make sense why Mitsuomi accuses Shin of "stealing" it. In other words, the forged needle can be learned. And besides, why would Masataka be surprised at Nagi's unexpected development when he watched him practice? I doubt that he understood or even knew about the consequences of Nagi's red feather origins during that time. Tawara on the other hand, is able to prevent Nagi from pulling it off because he understands the mechanics behind its execution.
That's not exactly true. The powers that are inherent to the Reds are the powers they gain from opening the Dragon's Gate, i.e. Dragon's Eye, Dragon's Fist, Dragon's Palm.

Forged Needle is different. That is simply a technique of spirit, not a power. Now is it a martial arts move. Forged Needle IS magic, but it's on a different level from the Dragon's Gate. This is why the Forged Needle can be learned by others. However, there is absolutely no indication that someone who is not a Red Feather, i.e. someone who is not a magic user, can actually do Forged Needle. Shin, Mitsuomi and Nagi can do it. Masataka can probably do it (we don't really know, if that thing with Bob was a Forged Needle, or simply reverse striking). Tawara knows its properties, but there is not indication that he can actually do it.
As for the red feathers, I think they're also very good in martial arts. Martial arts is, after all, just one of the many ways through which one is able to cultivate one's ki and spirit. However, because of the diverse conditions placed by their powers, there are also other avenues open to them. The Enma Clan doesn't look like a family pursuing martial arts per se, and the power of the Dragon Palm--which heals--suggests another way of life. In fact, the Nagi Clan are considered as "exorcists." The white feathers on the other hand, seem to be solely in pursuit of the arts of combat and martial traditions. Basically, it's like comparing mystics and warriors who complement each other.
No disargeement here.

Many of the older generation seem to be more sorcerors than fighters. We know that both Kago and Makiko can fight. And they are both very good magic users. However, Nagi only focuses on the fighting side of his heritage so far, without utilizing his magical abilities, except for the Dragon's Fist. But he uses it only to fight, while Kago can use it to actually control others.
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Post by kujoe »

Yes, the abilities of the red feathers are gained from opening the Dragon Gates--but each clan is very specific to the type of dragon they use so far. The Dragon Fist of the Nagi Clan is specific to them--the Nagi Clan's Dragon Fist as the manga goes--which is why since ancient times they have always been hated and resented by "both demons and humans alike." (forgot the page) The same goes for Ishiyumi's Water Dragon and the Natsume's Dragon's Eye. If it were so arbitrary, then anybody can harness the Dragon's Fist by striving in opening a gate, and its ability to "eat" the dragons of others wouldn't be such a big deal.

Also take note of how the manga refers to Nagi's "superior blood." This doesn't necessarily imply that he's a genius at fighting or anything like that, but it's also juxtaposed with regard to his Dragon's Fist and his recent development. Furthermore, Aya has shown signs of the Dragon's Eye since she was a child, unlike Maya who seems to have no ability of it whatsoever. I doubt Shin was training her with all his angst and problems during that time. In fact Shin was imprisoned by his father for having it. I think eventually, such abilities have been passed on.

I think I'm getting confused with your use of the terms "magic" and "spirit." The word, "magic" for me connotes ideas of the supernatural--of influencing the course of events that natural laws cannot explain. The powers of the red feathers are not "magic"--they're more spirit-based, and for the Japanese, the existence of spirits has been seen as part of their natural world since the anicient times. When you said that the forged needle is magic, this is the connotation that I associated with your statement. That's why I said that the forged needle is a martial art technique originally developed by the Takayanagi Clan. (see past arc: Shin vs. Mitsuomi) It's harnessed by one's ki and it's not "magic" in this respect.

Did I misunderstand you? I admit--I'm also confused in this. :?
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Post by burrowowl »

kujoe wrote:I think I'm getting confused with your use of the terms "magic" and "spirit." The word, "magic" for me connotes ideas of the supernatural--of influencing the course of events that natural laws cannot explain. The powers of the red feathers are not "magic"--they're more spirit-based, and for the Japanese, the existence of spirits has been seen as part of their natural world since the anicient times. When you said that the forged needle is magic, this is the connotation that I associated with your statement. That's why I said that the forged needle is a martial art technique originally developed by the Takayanagi Clan. (see past arc: Shin vs. Mitsuomi) It's harnessed by one's ki and it's not "magic" in this respect.
There is no material difference between "magic" and "spirit powers." It is essentially a false distinction. Unless you're talking about "sleight of hand," which I don't think anybody here meant by use of that term. If you are somebody that believes in the concept of "natural law" then nothing would work contrary to the natural law, so neither magic nor spirit would be able to simultaneously exist and be contrary to that law.

Whether the overly-violent teenagers and horrendously abusive parental figures in their lives think there is a rational explanation for these abilities doesn't change things. The "dragon" abilities which are explained with "gates" and "spirit" are understood to be hereditary. This serves a function in the plotline by allowing characters who are "in the know" like Makiko or Dougen to be able to predict the "supernatural"/"preternatural"/"over the top"/"neato to draw but don't really make sense" abilities of the other characters. Note that Kabuto (F) demonstrates that he had every expectation of Souichiro co-opting Ishiyumi's "water dragon" ability. What a great Evil Mastermind scene! Understanding that these abilities are hereditary allows the author to insert tantalizing hints that foreshadow upcoming scenes. If Souichiro's abilities were simply random, such foreshadowing would be much more difficult to bring into play.

That all being said, I agree that the Forged Needle is a learned skill. Chiaki could pick it up eventually if she worked at it hard enough :)
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Post by AdrianWerner »

burrowowl wrote: There is no material difference between "magic" and "spirit powers."

Well..the diffrence is that this "magic" is ihnerited, while spirit-based techiques are learned and everyone can learn them. THe dragon powers are "supernatural" in world of TT, because they do not fit the "norm", normal people do not have them. In TT everyone has a spirit, so spirit-based techiques aren`t supernatural :)
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Post by MrProphet »

kujoe wrote:Yes, the abilities of the red feathers are gained from opening the Dragon Gates--but each clan is very specific to the type of dragon they use so far. The Dragon Fist of the Nagi Clan is specific to them--the Nagi Clan's Dragon Fist as the manga goes--which is why since ancient times they have always been hated and resented by "both demons and humans alike." (forgot the page) The same goes for Ishiyumi's Water Dragon and the Natsume's Dragon's Eye. If it were so arbitrary, then anybody can harness the Dragon's Fist by striving in opening a gate, and its ability to "eat" the dragons of others wouldn't be such a big deal.
All you say is true. But we were speaking about the Forged Needle. Forged Needle is a spirit-based attack, BUT it is on the other level from other spirit-based attacks in a way that only Red Feathers, who have a stronger tendency toward supernatural, can produce it.

In a way, Forged Needle is somewhere between simple spirit attacks and the Dragon's Gate.
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Post by kujoe »

burrowowl wrote:There is no material difference between "magic" and "spirit powers." It is essentially a false distinction. Unless you're talking about "sleight of hand," which I don't think anybody here meant by use of that term. If you are somebody that believes in the concept of "natural law" then nothing would work contrary to the natural law, so neither magic nor spirit would be able to simultaneously exist and be contrary to that law.
Which is why I find the term, "magic" problematic for me. The idea of spirits belonging in the natural world on the other hand, is seen from a specific cosmological context. When I say "spirit-based" I really meant it quite literally--as in "spiritual powers." I think I improperly used the former term and should've used the latter in order to avoid confusing it with other ideas such as ki or whatever.

I also agree with you that the forged needle is a learned skill--that's what I've been saying--which is also why I don't see it as something that is exclusive to the red feathers alone, nor as something that can be classified as "magic."
Last edited by kujoe on Wed May 05, 2004 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MrProphet »

Unfortunately, it is impossible to prove or disprove it. We have never seen anyone, who is not a Red Feather using the Forged Needle.

Hopefully, we will see more of Tawara in chapters 74+. Maybe he can produce something as supernatural.
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Post by burrowowl »

MrProphet wrote:Unfortunately, it is impossible to prove or disprove it. We have never seen anyone, who is not a Red Feather using the Forged Needle.
I'm not sure what people are seeing as so supernatural about the Forged Needle. It's nothing, as high-fantasy kung-fu powers go, compared to Isuzu Emi or Natsume Maya's body manipulation techniques or Ryuzaki's flame manipulation. It's a really strong punch. Woo. Throw your science books out the windows, folks, somebody figured out an efficient short hook.
MrProphet wrote:Hopefully, we will see more of Tawara in chapters 74+. Maybe he can produce something as supernatural.
Personally, I hope he doesn't. I've always been partial to characters that don't have crazy powers, especially in stories that have lots of characters flying through the air, releasing dragons through their pineal glands, and creating illusory schoolgirls out of trained moths. This is why I like playing Thieves and Fighters in D&D games. It is much more satisfying to cleave through an evil necromancer with a sword than it is to blast the same necromancer to bits with a lightning bolt or pillar of magical flame. Similarly, it is more rewarding to watch Tawara kick somebody's ass with a well-delivered uppercut, sans supernatural explanation.
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Post by vesper »

oh god i would love to see how strong tawara is compared to everyone else. he is still, i think, the strongest and coolest character. T_T tawara tawara fighting~!! ^_^
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Post by Kagutsuchi »

I'm not sure what people are seeing as so supernatural about the Forged Needle... It's a really strong punch. Woo.
I'm almost positive the Forged Needle is NOT a Red Feather-only technique. Regular martial artists can learn it too. This doesn't mean it's not incredible though, definitely not just "a strong punch." Tsumuji [F] says Nagi's range with it was 4.57 meter. (I'm sure Shin, Mitsuomi, Maya and Masataka are even better at it too - longer range, more experience, etc.)

Can your strongest punch devastate everything in a 15 foot path in front of you?

On a side note, I tend to like the hand-to-hand characters better... Maya and Masataka. Tawara is pretty cool too, but I find it a bit too cheesy that he's so strong with ZERO training... whereas all the Natsumes, Takayanagis, and others have been training martial arts from birth. Either way, Tawara and Bob should have their own unique (and strong) fighting styles without spirit.
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Post by Kagutsuchi »

Oh, and you could argue that Tawara's "training" was fight experience over the years. I still don't buy that story though. Everyone has fight experience.

You could say: "in the eyes of a novice there are many options, in the eyes of the master, few." It's possible people develop their own fighting styles, but that takes talent... possibly genius to come up with one that is effective.

Martial arts are a system that WORKS. Tested, proven and tweaked over the last thousands of years. By millions of people, rather than by yourself alone. Pressure points and vital nerve areas are practically impossible to find by yourself, for example. (I have personal experience, taking Southern Shaolin a few years back. My sifu was amazingly good at hitting them fast and accurate. I couldn't do them worth crap and I knew where some basic ones were too.)

I'm willing to bet that for each "elite" street fighter that can beat an elite martial artist, there are at least 10 times more that lose. Of course that's just my view on it. It's just a manga after all, where everyone is a freaking genius, or badass, or alien.
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Post by burrowowl »

Kagutsuchi wrote:Can your strongest punch devastate everything in a 15 foot path in front of you?
No, but I used to be able to land a decent jab from about ten with minimal telegraphing. Of course, that was after an awful lot of practice, and involved physically closing the gap between myself and my sparring partner. :)

I still find the ability to hide dozens of knives in your skin, change your appearance from that of a quarter-ton blob to a svelte, hot young thing to be far more "supernatural" or "fantastic" in nature. The "ranged punch" is old-hat and rather tame in martial arts comics, by comparrison.

As for a lack of training, that doesn't necessarily hold. Tawara is self-trained. All 'real' martial arts have either evolved over many years of trial, error, careful consideration, luck, and inspiration. Some formed practically overnight (the Preying Mantis form of Kung Fu was developed by a single man, supposedly), but by people who have been informed in their decisions in other techniques. But...
Kagutsuchi wrote:It's just a manga after all, where everyone is a freaking genius, or badass, or alien.
I couldn't agree more. All that really matters is that it entertains us :)
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Post by co0l »

hmmm well imo, the "magic" in TT is more of a bloodline ability while "spirit" moves can be done by anyone if their technique is good and high enough...

anywayz, imo, the natsume family probably was higher at one point probably because of their ability to see the future and even non-future stuff... in terms of information, they're the ultimate spy and in terms of fighting, invincible if they know it's gonna happen
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Post by SkullKnight »

hmmm 8 years ago eh? I wouldn't be surprised if that ties into something that happened to nagi that opened the gates for the redfeathers.
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Post by TW_J »

yo pplz question is it possible for a character to have more than one dragon gate opened?? if so how is this possible i heard someone mention dat dis aspect mite be y souhaku was after souichirou

can anyone answer my question??
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Post by kujoe »

I'm not really sure if such a thing is possible, but then again each of the red feather families supposedly has a gate of their own. (vol.9, p42 for more info) Perhaps that's the reason why the Nagi Clan has a special place within the clans--as the "exorcists" of the red feathers.

(On another note, Dougen mentions that Shin was supposed to have been disposed of by the 12th family long ago. So what do you guys think? Could the Nagi Clan be this so-called 12th family?)
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TW_J
Kouhai
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Post by TW_J »

well thats a possiblitity i guess
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