chapter 80

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Post by Mataza-kun »

MrProphet wrote:Do we really know that F is evil? Apart from Mataza, who was pretty fu**ed up, if you ask me.

Souhaku is pursuing a purpose that he considers noble and just. And I can't say that only because he is technically "in the other camp" that he is evil. Same goes for Mitsuomi. Apart from Mataza, none of the F really did anything really bad. I mean, nothing on the scale of Shin, Ryuuzaki or Fu Chi'en, right? Granted, I hate the fact that Makiko is armless, but she is still damn sexy nontheless, and it's not really Souhaku's fault his kid got out of control.
Well, Souhaku (or Tetsuhito for him) did kill personally several members of the 12 families, and even in this chap Inoue says he helped Mitsuomi to counter-attack the families who revolted against his coup d'ètat.
I too don't want to say "one is completely good, the other is completely evil", because this view of things is old and absurd, but still there is a clear difference between them. At least I think so.
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Post by FuguTabetai »

MrProphet wrote: Also, as for Madoka's explanation of the Dragon's Roar. What does she mean? That when Inue screams "Do not move, you muscle-bound fool", that is when she is trying to get control of Mitsuomi? And that he simply struck without purpose, meaning that his fist made a punch on its own, without his brain thinking it?

Is that what is implied here? Or something else? Because I don't remember her screaming anything to Nagi...
Here is my take on it (which I think is correct, but like I always say, I'm just a fish. You're luck I can type at all.) The actual way Inue is able to control people via her "Dragon's Roar" is by the linking of her "ki"/conciousness with the other person's "ki"/conciousness. She needs to say something because that link is established (but perhaps not maintained) by the vibrations of the air molecules. I don't think what she says matters much - I think in pervious instances when she was controlling someone she was chanting buddhist stuff (I do not recall exactly though.)

So, she is able to control the other person's concious behavior. The "Mu Kuu Ken" is more of a Zen approach though: like the samurai warrior who is trained not to think when fighting, Mitsuomi has trained himself to battle on an unconcious level. That is not something that Inue can control - or in fact anticipate. I thought it was very clever really.

Anyway, snowing hard in NYC now. I'm off to Book Off to see what a huge bag of manga will net me (less junk in my room at least.)
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Post by MrProphet »

Dembol wrote:Hitler also thought he's noble and righteous :P
People IMO are labelled bad (or evil) usually when they're doing something wrong compared to the general moral standards of the majority of population.
That's complete baloney! Tell me exactly what did Souhaku do that is evil and what others did not do as well?

The only questionable action of his is probably killing Madoka's family and we really DON'T know his motives for that.

Consider this. If you had a crazy guy like Shin roaming around, killing people because of his inability to control his power, wouldn't you want to stop people like him?

I think that is Souhaku's reasoning. Dragon Gate users are way to dangerous, especially when used for evil purposes. Can't say he's wrong.
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Post by jaguar »

MrProphet wrote: Consider this. If you had a crazy guy like Shin roaming around, killing people because of his inability to control his power, wouldn't you want to stop people like him?

I think that is Souhaku's reasoning. Dragon Gate users are way to dangerous, especially when used for evil purposes. Can't say he's wrong.
But not all dragon users are evil. He is attacking both evil and innocent. Like his wife and the moth people? Did they do anything evil which would justify losing arms and lives?
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Post by MrProphet »

He said that Makiko has been conspiring against him, planning to betray him. Maybe he is delusional... but how much do we really know about Souhaku and Makiko?
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Post by Desperto »

MrProphet wrote:
Dembol wrote:Hitler also thought he's noble and righteous :P
People IMO are labelled bad (or evil) usually when they're doing something wrong compared to the general moral standards of the majority of population.
That's complete baloney! Tell me exactly what did Souhaku do that is evil and what others did not do as well?

The only questionable action of his is probably killing Madoka's family and we really DON'T know his motives for that.

Consider this. If you had a crazy guy like Shin roaming around, killing people because of his inability to control his power, wouldn't you want to stop people like him?

I think that is Souhaku's reasoning. Dragon Gate users are way to dangerous, especially when used for evil purposes. Can't say he's wrong.
So, killing people is allright if you have a plan ?
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Post by MrProphet »

Stealing the potentially evil powers of people who can potentially do pretty bad stuff is good, yes.
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Post by FuguTabetai »

I think Mr. Prophet has a very interesting point - one of the things I really like about Tenjo Tenge is that things are done in shades of gray. I could totally see this story being told the other way around. It would make a pretty damn good story too...

I would say though, that some of the things that Mataza (F) has done are over on the "evil" side of the scale though. Granted, he had a reason to torture the younger Yorihira son (but to that extent??), but going as crazy on Enma as he did, that is hard to defend...
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Post by jaguar »

MrProphet wrote:He said that Makiko has been conspiring against him, planning to betray him. Maybe he is delusional... but how much do we really know about Souhaku and Makiko?
Even if she was conspiring, look at what she's conspiring against.

A plan which screws over the elder heads of the feather families, and if Mataza's father is any indication, most, if not all, seem to be good people, not evil dragon users.

A plan which has no qualms about outright massacring an entire family like the Enmas.

A plan which feeds countless victims to Nagi, leaving them dead or crippled like Shizuru's brother, and I'm sure many of them were innocent or decent folk. Example, Shizuru seemed pretty nice.

I get what you're trying to say about Souhaku's goals, but it's a question of whether the ends justify the means. In this case, I'd say no.
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Post by MrProphet »

OK, lets get a couple things straight here.

1) The old dudes were forced into exile, when Souhaku and Mitsuomi staged their little coup.

2) The Enma thing seemed more like the result of Mataza's "overzealousness", rather that Souhaku's direction.

3) Well, that's the plan. Istead of killing them. which Souhaku seemed to have deemed inefficient, he strips them of their power.

4) Shizuru asked for it. I mean, she is the one that sneaked in and attacked Kago. Granted, Inue seemed just a bit too sadistic, but hey, she got what was coming to her in the latest chapter, right? I think that's decent payback. 8)

I am not really trying to put Souhaku over as a tree-hugging, fun-loving, great kind of guy, but you have to admit... he personally never did anything overly evil. That's why I am surprized at the labeling of Souhaku as an evil guy.

Mitsoumi seemed like a bad guy too. And Maya said he killed her brother. Well, we know that wasn't exactly like that. So, before I go on and trust everyone's feelings about siblings and families, I better get the whole picture straight.

And so far, the "Souhaku and Makiko" picture is anything BUT straight and clear.
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Post by jaguar »

1) Did they deserve to be exiled? Did they doing anything evil which justified this? It's not like it was a natural succession where the kids became stronger than the elders. Or at least in Mataza's case, if he didn't have all those fancy gadgets from Sohaku, he would have never beaten his father.

2)Sohaku knows what kind of guy he is employing in Mataza. Sohaku can't wash his hands of the fact that he lets Mataza go out there and do his thing.

3) Oh okay, so it's fine that he doesn't kill them, he just smashes them up and cripples them? I don't recall smashing innocent people up and crippling them falling under the "good guy" theme.

4)Shizuru asked for it? She asked for Sohaku to start it all by feeding her brother to Nagi?
I am not really trying to put Souhaku over as a tree-hugging, fun-loving, great kind of guy, but you have to admit... he personally never did anything overly evil. That's why I am surprized at the labeling of Souhaku as an evil guy.
That's like saying a mob boss personally doesnt do anything evil, while all his button men do the killing.
Mitsoumi seemed like a bad guy too. And Maya said he killed her brother. Well, we know that wasn't exactly like that. So, before I go on and trust everyone's feelings about siblings and families, I better get the whole picture straight.

And so far, the "Souhaku and Makiko" picture is anything BUT straight and clear.
That's true, but right now, Sohaku sure seems like a bad guy to me. Not wholly evil, as in bent on world domination or destruction, but his ways are undeniably twisted.
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Post by MrProphet »

Well, I'd like to remind you that the men with Mataza were not Kago men, they were Takayanagi men.

So, if anything, Mitsuomi is fully complicit in all the things Mataza did and what the Chinese mafia did and the rest. He is the one who opened the Pandora's box when he asked for Kago's help.

You see, this is the kind of blame game I am trying to avoid. Is Mitsuomi responsible for Ryuuzaki raping Bob's girlfriend? Isuzu ordered it, but Mitsuomi hired Ryuuzaki.

Same with Souhaku. His plan may not always turn out perfect. In fact, it turned out pretty screwed up. But that doesn't mean that Souhaku wanted it to become thus. I don't know much about his goals, but just from his talk with Makiko about him destroying the demons she gave birth to, I can't help but NOT see him as some Evil Overlord wannabe.
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Post by kk1 »

I don't think there is anyone who is completely an innocent in this book. About the only one who's never really done anything "bad" is Masatka.
Shin murdered his parents and beat the crap out of freinds and strangers alike. Maya beat the hell out of all the Katana members just to get at her brother. Bob and Nagi were hoodlums who beat on lots of people without provocation. Aya tried to kill Tagami,she thought she did (she was attacked first but he wasn't trying to kill her). This is all one big family fight and we don't really know how they handle their internal struggles maybe this is de rigueur for the Takayanagi and 12 founding families, remember when Shin's powers first manifested they were going to send him away(so the whole family wouldn't be "taken care of") and after he killed his parents if Dougen hadn't stepped in (for his own selfish reasons of course) the 12 families(the translation I have says 12th family but shouldn't it be 12 families?) decided he was to be "disposed of". So killing "trouble makers" doesn't seem to be something that just started with Mitsuomi's coup or Souhaku's plan.
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Post by TW_J »

i personnally would label souhaku as evil souhaku has done some pretty cruel things starting with the 8 years ago incident mitsoumi i think is just trying to give rise to the takayanagi family mitsoumi is just doing his part so he wouldnt be considered evil.

btw even though ishyumi is no longer holding back doesnt mean this is going to be an easy fight against souichirou, souichirou afterall learned how to control his abilities
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Post by FuguTabetai »

finished translation of chapter 80. yay.
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Post by MrProphet »

Woohoo, thanks Fugu. Great work!

Interesting how Inue says: "It doesn't matter how much 'meat' we feed him..."

I think what is implied here is that Nagi is being made ready to fight with Mitsuomi, but Inue thinks that Nagi will not win against this kind of Mitsuomi.

Interesting. Most interesting...
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Post by Rev »

something buggin me. why is it that Madoka is so friendly towards Mitsuomi.
I would of have thought that she wouldn't like him very much since he must of known she was brainwashed and he did shit about it. Also Mitsuomi doesn't seem to care that Madoka almost killed Isuzu. He might want to use her to teach him some moves.
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Post by EliteF22 »

I get the feeling that Madoka tried to be friends with all the other F members. Considering she was the youngest she might have looked upon them as brothers. I find it funny that she calls Inue "old lady."
Inue's impression that the meat given to Souichirou might not be enough for him to beat Mitsuomi is a bit of foreshadowing in my opinion. Not that Souichirou might lose, but that Souhaku's plan still hasn't been detailed. I don't even think Inue knows all the details of Souhaku's plan. Souhaku should know the type of training that Mitsuomi has gone through. I don't think Inue even has a clue about the possibility that she herself might be fed to Souichirou. With Souichirou escaping his prison, I think he'll beat Ishiyumi and then when Inue returns he can get some payback. I still believe that F was meant to be nothing but food for Souichirou.
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Post by Desperto »

Hmm, ok, lets try to talk about good and evil them.
But this is a very difficult topic, lots of people try to come to a conclusion about this, and lots of wars followed.

For me, killing is evil, manipulate people is evil, kidnap people is evil. No amount of "its for the greater good" can erase the suffering these people are put through after a goal they dont undestand or believe. If Souhaku truly was a good person, he would seek other ways to do it, much difficult ways its true, but good ways noneless.

Souhaku believes something or he wouldnt be going through all this trouble, but the nature of what he belives is good to him, but for others may not be. So why is his way considered good if he is walking over people that dont think that ? He is imposing his way by his strengh. Thats intimidation, and that is a tool of those that cant show the good of their actions.

We cant lose focus on what we think its good, because that line can dissapear really fast if you let yourself be blind by rage, anger or sadness. We have to remeber that the rain falls on everyone, and kindness isnt a easy path, but is the one with the most rewards.

But the nature of a lot of the characters on TT isnt as clear or focused as that, all of them are struggling with something, thats why they are interresting characters. Nagi is a hoodlum bastard that beatted people for lack of what do to, but when he was confronted with purpose, he choose to protect others, and that is getting him in a lot of trouble and pain, but he is doing it anyway. In the same sense maybe Souhaku has a good side to him that he is struggling as well, but so far all the characters have displayed trouble and lack of focus, all of the except Souhaku. That leads me too think that he has choose his path already, and that he is truly the "evil guy" so far

Maybe i am wrong, but his acts so far arent ones of a good person

Thank you all that readed so far, and sorry for the errors and mistakes on the text, im still learning english. Thank you again.
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Post by jaguar »

MrProphet wrote:Well, I'd like to remind you that the men with Mataza were not Kago men, they were Takayanagi men.

So, if anything, Mitsuomi is fully complicit in all the things Mataza did and what the Chinese mafia did and the rest. He is the one who opened the Pandora's box when he asked for Kago's help.

You see, this is the kind of blame game I am trying to avoid. Is Mitsuomi responsible for Ryuuzaki raping Bob's girlfriend? Isuzu ordered it, but Mitsuomi hired Ryuuzaki.

Same with Souhaku. His plan may not always turn out perfect. In fact, it turned out pretty screwed up. But that doesn't mean that Souhaku wanted it to become thus. I don't know much about his goals, but just from his talk with Makiko about him destroying the demons she gave birth to, I can't help but NOT see him as some Evil Overlord wannabe.
What blame game? Everything that Mitsuomi and F have done so far, it is all done for the purpose of feeding innocent victims to Nagi.

Mitsuomi and F aren't innocent, but Sohaku is the one who came up with this master plan. He stands by and watches his son feed on the innocent people. If you think it's okay to pit innocent people against someone they have no chance at beating, then uh, yeah.

As for something Sohaku has personally done, look at Madoka's case. He killed her parents, seduced her, and used her. Sure sounds like a bad guy to me.
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Post by MrProphet »

jaguar wrote:What blame game? Everything that Mitsuomi and F have done so far, it is all done for the purpose of feeding innocent victims to Nagi.
Mitsuomi is feeding dragons to Nagi, his opponent, so as to make him stronger. Riiiiight. That's awesome logic there.
Mitsuomi and F aren't innocent, but Sohaku is the one who came up with this master plan. He stands by and watches his son feed on the innocent people. If you think it's okay to pit innocent people against someone they have no chance at beating, then uh, yeah.
Um, not exactly. It has been Mitsuomi's idea to revolt against his dad. Souhaku just privided the "start-up capital". The rest of the repressions against the families, against Jyuukenbu, against Toudou fighters, that's been Mitsuomi all along.

And I wouldn't call Mataza, Kabuto or Ishiyumi "innocent people". If you think they didn't deserve to be stripped of their powers, well, Nagi didn't deserve to be attacked by them either. It was a fair fight: whoever wins - wins.

So, let's cut the melodrama.
As for something Sohaku has personally done, look at Madoka's case. He killed her parents, seduced her, and used her. Sure sounds like a bad guy to me.
He didn't seduce her, where did you get that from?
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Post by Dembol »

MrProphet wrote:
Dembol wrote:Hitler also thought he's noble and righteous :P
People IMO are labelled bad (or evil) usually when they're doing something wrong compared to the general moral standards of the majority of population.
That's complete baloney! Tell me exactly what did Souhaku do that is evil and what others did not do as well?

The only questionable action of his is probably killing Madoka's family and we really DON'T know his motives for that.

Consider this. If you had a crazy guy like Shin roaming around, killing people because of his inability to control his power, wouldn't you want to stop people like him?

I think that is Souhaku's reasoning. Dragon Gate users are way to dangerous, especially when used for evil purposes. Can't say he's wrong.
I only commented on your thought that he was ok because he thought was righteous.
I dont' label him good or bad, but he seems closer to bad, because he did pretty anlawful stuff. Whatever the reasons are, killing people and cutting their hands off is considered as a crime in majority of civilised world (except maybe in self-defence). So in the name of law and ethics he's a bad guy and a criminal.

I also never labelled Shin as good(and I didn't write it anywhere). To me he's a pretty sick bastard. I'm always wondering why everyone is so cool with him even though he's a killer and a total freak. Especially Maya after he killed their parents.

When I take a look at all characters from TJTG he(Suhaku) is the one that resembles the most a typical "evil overlord", but then again as Fugu said, the characters in TJTG are mostly grey. If so, then Souhaki is the darkest shade of grey ;)

Can sb give ma a link to the translation since I'm stupid and can't find it by myself. ;)
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Post by jaguar »

Mitsuomi is feeding dragons to Nagi, his opponent, so as to make him stronger. Riiiiight. That's awesome logic there.
Read my post again. I said that Sohaku, not Mitsuomi, is feeding the dragons to Nagi. Mitsuomi confirms this when he tells Inue that he knows why Sohaku is bringing members from all families to Nagi.

Sohaku had Mitsuomi and F do things which facilitated the collection of fighters for Nagi to feed on. Mitsuomi was not supposed to know about this purpose behind Sohaku's true plan. He was supposed to be a puppet who did Sohaku's dirty work. Mitsuomi is smart enough to figure it out, though it's too late now.
Um, not exactly. It has been Mitsuomi's idea to revolt against his dad. Souhaku just privided the "start-up capital". The rest of the repressions against the families, against Jyuukenbu, against Toudou fighters, that's been Mitsuomi all along.
Wrong. Sohaku did not just provide capital. Inue specifically said that Sohaku came up with the plan to squash the other heads of the families, and that he is the one who put the other 17 year olds into power. Todou and Jyuukenbu are merely a microcosm of what's happening all over Japan.

Sohaku is the mastermind. Mitsuomi is a pawn.
And I wouldn't call Mataza, Kabuto or Ishiyumi "innocent people". If you think they didn't deserve to be stripped of their powers, well, Nagi didn't deserve to be attacked by them either. It was a fair fight: whoever wins - wins.
Those three were just a couple of the many people who have been fed to Nagi. And from those victims, many of them must have been decent folk if the non-F members are any indication. The Enmas, Mataza's father, Shizuru, they all seem decent enough.

As for Ishiyumi, there is no evidence that he killed indiscriminately before he was betrayed by Sohaku. Example, Ishiyumi could have easily killed Nagi the first time, but he let Nagi off easy. Kabuto had no choice, he was thrown into the pit. That skateboarder guy seems kinda decent, too. He healed Masataka and Madoka even though they were the enemy. Too bad he will probably get fed to Nagi, also.
He didn't seduce her, where did you get that from?
He used his magic to trick her into falling in love with him. He promised to marry her. Sounds like seduction to me.

Killing her parents, seducing her, using her, then tossing her aside. That is an evil thing to do. No way around it.
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Post by MrProphet »

jaguar wrote:Read my post again. I said that Sohaku, not Mitsuomi, is feeding the dragons to Nagi. Mitsuomi confirms this when he tells Inue that he knows why Sohaku is bringing members from all families to Nagi.
Are the following your words then?
Everything that Mitsuomi and F have done so far, it is all done for the purpose of feeding innocent victims to Nagi.
Wrong. Sohaku did not just provide capital. Inue specifically said that Sohaku came up with the plan to squash the other heads of the families, and that he is the one who put the other 17 year olds into power. Todou and Jyuukenbu are merely a microcosm of what's happening all over Japan.
Re-read volume 8 once again then. Mitsuomi specifically says that he sold "2 or 3 buildings" to pay the mercenaries. No Souhaku there.
Those three were just a couple of the many people who have been fed to Nagi. And from those victims, many of them must have been decent folk if the non-F members are any indication.
Yeah, and who else? There was an implication about Shizuru's brother, but it was never expressly stated that he lost his dragon? So, who else beside the F, who are of course the paragons of virtue and don't deserve anything that's coming their way? 8)
The Enmas, Mataza's father, Shizuru, they all seem decent enough.
None of this is true. Just read the manga again.

Mitsuomi's men attacked Enma temple to get the secret scroll (and the chip), not their power.

Yorihira never had any powers to begin with.

Shizuru came to Kago's lair ON HER OWN! It was her idea!
As for Ishiyumi, there is no evidence that he killed indiscriminately before he was betrayed by Sohaku. Example, Ishiyumi could have easily killed Nagi the first time, but he let Nagi off easy.
Not so. Nagi went all Super-Saiyan-ish on Ishiyumi and acturally broke his arm and fingers with Dragon Fist. Didn't seem like Ishiyumi was having an easy time, even if you account for resptrictor rods.
Kabuto had no choice, he was thrown into the pit.
And that makes him a good guy? He watched by as Enmi Enma was tortured, I feel zero pity for him.
He used his magic to trick her into falling in love with him. He promised to marry her. Sounds like seduction to me.
He never said anything about marriage. She said he took her in after her family died and she kept calling him "papa" when he said that they'll become a real family after she completes the errand. I see no seduction, nor marriage.
Killing her parents, seducing her, using her, then tossing her aside. That is an evil thing to do. No way around it.
I saw neither seduction, not any "tossing aside". She is the one that went over to Jyuukenbu. In fact, Kabuto asked her to come back, she was the one to refuse.

I reread the manga recently to refresh my memory. I suggest we all do the same.
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Post by moyism »

I'm not even going to try to get myself in this discussion but I must say it's pretty mad interesting and all the points talked about just goes to show how diverse TT can be. Everyone has their own interpretation of it, and it's fun seeing how that plays out against other people's... no real "wrong" or "right" but just an collection of thoughts of what Oh!Great might be saying.

Though knowing how Oh!Great likes to throws stuff from left field a lot, it'll be one heck of a ride in the future as we see the fate of the TT characters we've all known to grow to love and hate ;)

... okay, continue discussing.... me go back to lurking and watching my site's bw get killed from the TT galleries :twisted:
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Post by kk1 »

MrProphet wrote:
jaguar wrote:Read my post again. I said that Sohaku, not Mitsuomi, is feeding the dragons to Nagi. Mitsuomi confirms this when he tells Inue that he knows why Sohaku is bringing members from all families to Nagi.

He used his magic to trick her into falling in love with him. He promised to marry her. Sounds like seduction to me.
He never said anything about marriage. She said he took her in after her family died and she kept calling him "papa" when he said that they'll become a real family after she completes the errand. I see no seduction, nor marriage.
Killing her parents, seducing her, using her, then tossing her aside. That is an evil thing to do. No way around it.
I saw neither seduction, not any "tossing aside". She is the one that went over to Jyuukenbu. In fact, Kabuto asked her to come back, she was the one to refuse.

I reread the manga recently to refresh my memory. I suggest we all do the same.
Perhaps you should reread vol 12 again as Madoka says "Why did I think I loved him?" right after Sohaku's control over her ended. And in the flashback to when Sohaku sent her on her "errand" against Bob he gives her a wedding dress as a present and promises they will becaome a "real" family when she gets back. I don't know what your definition of seduction is but I'd say manipulating someone into believing they loved you definately qualifies. And he did toss her aside because he knew once his control over her was broken she'd see everything clearly and wasn't worth trying to control anymore. Note Kabuto's concern and Sohaku's "worthless brat" and "yeah well" responses.
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Post by HappyStealer »

haha u guys certainly have some great posts. Great arguements nonetheless. Haha I love how tenten can send so many mixed messages. :D BUt a lot of the current arguement is just a lot of assumption. What we really need to know is history before mitsuomi came to power. Because a lot of it as I see it, is that no information on the past is given so people are trying to basically guess what happened. The maya/mitsuomi past thing was great, but was a little extended. It might of beena a good idea to use those chapters and explain a bit about the Takayanagi and 12 feather families. Especially souhaku/makiko's story. BUt you guys are doing a great job with the arguements. Keep it up. I enjoy reading interesting points about tenten as it is sometimes confusing for me.
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Post by MrProphet »

kk1 wrote:Perhaps you should reread vol 12 again as Madoka says "Why did I think I loved him?" right after Sohaku's control over her ended.
Oh, I did. So, are you saying that she couldn't love him as a surrogate father? Does it always have to be sexual? Is anything sexual even implied there? If you really think so, you shouldn't watch Miyazaki's films. In Tonari no Totoro, there is a scene where a father is taking a bath with his two little pre-pubescent girls. WOW, that's some kinky stuff right there, right? :twisted:

Madoka is a very young girl. And if you haven't noticed, girls like dresses. And girls at that age seek the approval of older men, whom they like. She was just happy that Souhaku is paying so much attention to her. Remember how happy she was when Masataka called her a "good girl"?

I mean, do I really have to explain such obvious stuff? 8)
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Post by kk1 »

MrProphet wrote:
kk1 wrote:Perhaps you should reread vol 12 again as Madoka says "Why did I think I loved him?" right after Sohaku's control over her ended.
Oh, I did. So, are you saying that she couldn't love him as a surrogate father? Does it always have to be sexual? Is anything sexual even implied there? If you really think so, you shouldn't watch Miyazaki's films. In Tonari no Totoro, there is a scene where a father is taking a bath with his two little pre-pubescent girls. WOW, that's some kinky stuff right there, right? :twisted:

Madoka is a very young girl. And if you haven't noticed, girls like dresses. And girls at that age seek the approval of older men, whom they like. She was just happy that Souhaku is paying so much attention to her. Remember how happy she was when Masataka called her a "good girl"?

I mean, do I really have to explain such obvious stuff? 8)
I don't need an explanation, since it was pretty darn obvious what was implied by a wedding dress and "be a real family". I'm sure she was manipulated into loving him as a surrogate father too but that still doesn't mean he wasn't manipulating her in to believing he would marry her. And whats all this sex, sex, sex? I don't think sex had anything to do with it when was the last time you heard a young girl talking about marriage and equating it with sex, like you said she's a young girl. How many little girls watching Disney movies seeing the heroine getting married at the end start thinking "oh I want to get married to a prince too...so he can pound me with his throbbing meat stick every night"? It was all amupulation anyway, Sohaku probably maipulated her many, many, ways playing on all the hopes and fears of a young girl.
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Post by jaguar »

Quote:
Wrong. Sohaku did not just provide capital. Inue specifically said that Sohaku came up with the plan to squash the other heads of the families, and that he is the one who put the other 17 year olds into power. Todou and Jyuukenbu are merely a microcosm of what's happening all over Japan.

Re-read volume 8 once again then. Mitsuomi specifically says that he sold "2 or 3 buildings" to pay the mercenaries. No Souhaku there.
Volume 8? How about we reread the last chapter? Inue said that Sohaku was the one who managed the negotiations with these mercenaries you speak of. Mitsuomi did not deny it, because he knows it is true. Sohaku is the ringleader of it all. Like F, Mitsuomi was meant to be nothing but an underling of Sohaku.
Quote:
Those three were just a couple of the many people who have been fed to Nagi. And from those victims, many of them must have been decent folk if the non-F members are any indication.

Yeah, and who else? There was an implication about Shizuru's brother, but it was never expressly stated that he lost his dragon? So, who else beside the F, who are of course the paragons of virtue and don't deserve anything that's coming their way? Cool
You said you agreed with Sohaku's reasoning. You said that dragons users are too dangerous. You said Sohaku did not do anything overly evil, when his main plan is to get rid of the dragon users by slaughtering the 12 families, as Madoka revealed to Jyuukenbu.

I disagree with the moral aspects of that plan. Part of the plan involved dethroning or killing the twelve elder heads of the families. However, Mataza's pops is a good person. He did not deserve to get kicked out.

You still have zero evidence that Ishiyumi fits the profile of a wild violent dragon user, a violent menace to society who should have his dragon forcibly removed, as dictated by Sohaku's quest. All evidence shows that Ishiyumi was a rational civil person until Sohaku betrayed him. Example, he held back against Nagi because he didn't want to kill Nagi without a good reason.

Also, Ishiyumi was a loyal soldier for Sohaku, but Sohaku fed him as meat to Nagi anyway. Like Kabuto revealed and Ishiyumi figured out, Ishiyumi's surveillance mission was a sham. It was a set up where Nagi could absorb Ishiyumi's dragon. Only a morally bankrupt leader would treat a loyal soldier like that.
He never said anything about marriage. She said he took her in after her family died and she kept calling him "papa" when he said that they'll become a real family after she completes the errand. I see no seduction, nor marriage.
You mean, he took her in after he killed her parents and then brainwashed her with his magic. Do you think it is evil to turn a child into an orphan, brainwash her, use her, and pretend to care for her? Yes or no?

Also, Nagi doesn't want to be with Sohaku. Nagi wants to fight with Jyuukenbu. But Sohaku imprisons his own son against his will. Such imprisonment is wrong and evil.
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Post by Agent_Wax »

And girls at that age seek the approval of older men, whom they like
Psychologists would argue that there is an inherent sexual underpinning in that. I see your point though, that there may not have been. It's not stated specifically, so there is more than one way of interpreting that scene.

Quote:
The Enmas, Mataza's father, Shizuru, they all seem decent enough.


None of this is true. Just read the manga again.
Well, whether someone is 'decent' or otherwise is a subjective on the part of the observer. I think what he meant is that they have not committed cruelties against other. Or rather, we have not SEEN them committing atrocities... they could be war criminals for all we know. But if we go down that road, none of the characters would be exempted. Perhaps Bob rapes prepubescent schoolgirls off panel... we therefore have to stick with the assumption that characters are 'decent' or otherwise based on what we can see in the panels, because that's all we really have.

Mitsuomi's men attacked Enma temple to get the secret scroll (and the chip), not their power.
To be precise, they were ex-Yorihira men. But whether they were Mitsuomi's men or Souhaku's is a moot point, because they're still working for Takayanagi, who happen to be a puppet leader of Souhaku's. And besides, they were taking field orders from Mataza, and the final destination of the chip, had they gotten hold of it, would likely be Souhaku and not Mitsuomi.

Souhaku believes something or he wouldnt be going through all this trouble, but the nature of what he belives is good to him, but for others may not be. So why is his way considered good if he is walking over people that dont think that ? He is imposing his way by his strengh. Thats intimidation, and that is a tool of those that cant show the good of their actions.
Thank you. I couldn't have put it better. Souhaku's intentions could very well be noble, and he might very well be a victim of circumstances that made him this way ('There but for the grace of God, go I'). Is he 'evil'? I don't really think so. At least not with what we know. But his actions and methods are pretty indefensible, so he can hardly be called 'good' or 'honourable'. The journey matters just as much, if not more, than the destination.
There is a lot of difference between an evil man, and a good man who does evil things. Which is he? I think it's still too early to tell.
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Post by MrProphet »

kk1 wrote:I don't need an explanation, since it was pretty darn obvious what was implied by a wedding dress and "be a real family". I'm sure she was manipulated into loving him as a surrogate father too but that still doesn't mean he wasn't manipulating her in to believing he would marry her. And whats all this sex, sex, sex? I don't think sex had anything to do with it when was the last time you heard a young girl talking about marriage and equating it with sex, like you said she's a young girl. How many little girls watching Disney movies seeing the heroine getting married at the end start thinking "oh I want to get married to a prince too...so he can pound me with his throbbing meat stick every night"? It was all amupulation anyway, Sohaku probably maipulated her many, many, ways playing on all the hopes and fears of a young girl.
So, if it wasn't sexual, what's this whole talk about "seducing Madoka"? You just proved my point.

Quod erat demonstrandum.
jaguar wrote:Volume 8? How about we reread the last chapter? Inue said that Sohaku was the one who managed the negotiations with these mercenaries you speak of. Mitsuomi did not deny it, because he knows it is true. Sohaku is the ringleader of it all. Like F, Mitsuomi was meant to be nothing but an underling of Sohaku.
Yeah, right. And who says that Inue is not exaggerating Souhaku's involvement with the reason to make Mitsuomi feel overreliant on Souhaku? I mean, here is a guy that is starting to buckle under pressure. It's just logical that Inue would try to keep him in line by stressing the importance of Souhaku for Mitsuomi. Real importance or exeggerated...
You said you agreed with Sohaku's reasoning. You said that dragons users are too dangerous. You said Sohaku did not do anything overly evil, when his main plan is to get rid of the dragon users by slaughtering the 12 families, as Madoka revealed to Jyuukenbu.
You are twisting the facts once again. It's not Souhaku's aparent current plan to kill the dragon users, but rather to steal their powers.
I disagree with the moral aspects of that plan. Part of the plan involved dethroning or killing the twelve elder heads of the families. However, Mataza's pops is a good person. He did not deserve to get kicked out.
All of the 12 flying phoenix general gods are alive except for Natsume Kaima, who was killed by Shin. So, who exactly died?

Like I said, stop twisiting the facts and pretend that Souhaku did stuff he never did.
You still have zero evidence that Ishiyumi fits the profile of a wild violent dragon user, a violent menace to society who should have his dragon forcibly removed, as dictated by Sohaku's quest.
I'm sorry, I didn't notice I have to prove anything.

On the contrary, it was your supposition that Ishiyumi is a poor darling who is being mercilesly fed to Nagi. Poor dear...

So, the weight of proof of all that lies on you. The only thing I stated was that Ishiyumi attacked Nagi first, so if Nagi took his dragon, he was only acting in self-defence. If Ishiyumi didn't want that, he shouldn't have picked a fight.

And let me remind you that Ishiyumi wasn't ordered to pick a fight by Souhaku.Ishiyumi himself said that he is fighting Nagi on his own accord to protect Mitsuomi. Same thing with Mataza. Kago just wanted him to get the chip from the Enmi's. Mataza's fight with Nagi is of Mataza's own making.

Wow, Souhaku must be soooo devious to have aranged all of that. If he in fact managed to make Ishiyumi to fall in love with Mitsuomi and try to defend him, if he managed to make Mouki Enmi to come to Natsume residense and managed to make Nagi and Aya go to Kyushyuu (instead of Maya, as was planned), if he managed all of that, my respect for him only grows. 8)

Souhaku must be at least some kind of a demigod to create all of those opportunities. 8)
Also, Ishiyumi was a loyal soldier for Sohaku, but Sohaku fed him as meat to Nagi anyway.
Loyal my ass! It was expressly stated that Ishiyumi took a great liking to Mitsuomi and that he was more of a Mitsuomi follower that Souhaku's. That
s right there, in the book. You should try it. 8)
You mean, he took her in after he killed her parents and then brainwashed her with his magic. Do you think it is evil to turn a child into an orphan, brainwash her, use her, and pretend to care for her? Yes or no?
I'd answer that, if only you didn't invent stuff like "pretend to care" or "use her".
Also, Nagi doesn't want to be with Sohaku. Nagi wants to fight with Jyuukenbu. But Sohaku imprisons his own son against his will. Such imprisonment is wrong and evil.
It is not more evil that what Natsume Kaima did to Natsume Shin, or what Dougen did to Mitsuomi. In fact, it's the exact same thing. All of them were used for one purpose or another. It does NOT mean that it was not a reasonably and relatively good purpose.
Agent_Wax wrote:Psychologists would argue that there is an inherent sexual underpinning in that. I see your point though, that there may not have been. It's not stated specifically, so there is more than one way of interpreting that scene.
Psychologists also say boys want to kill their fathers and marry their mothers. And the other way around with girls. Don't read too much into it. 8)

Well, whether someone is 'decent' or otherwise is a subjective on the part of the observer. I think what he meant is that they have not committed cruelties against other. Or rather, we have not SEEN them committing atrocities...
Then I don't understand what's with this branding of Souhaku... We don't even know his motives or the details of his "adventures", yet we presume to judge him.
To be precise, they were ex-Yorihira men.
Not exactly. The ones that attacked the temple were Takayanagi men. Emni sisters say it outright. The ones that were with Mataza in Kyushyu were Yorihira's former comrades-in-arms. It's just a minor detail, granted, but some people here have been VERY liberal with facts, so I prefer to stick to exact things that happened in the books. 8)
There is a lot of difference between an evil man, and a good man who does evil things. Which is he? I think it's still too early to tell.
That's the whole point I am trying to make here. I DON'T want to judge Souhaku based on several wild speculations and a GAPING lack of facts. I don't know if he is a bad guy or a good guy. We don't know enough of either his motivation to start this crusade of his, OR of his current plans.

But based on the information we DO know, I can't say that the scales can be tipped either way?

Is Souhaku bad for having killed Madoka's family? How the hell should I, or any of you, know? Do we know who these people were? Do we know why he killed them in the first place? NO. That's the answer.

Is Souhaku's chopping off of Makiko's arm bad? How should I know, if I don't know Souhaku's motivation for it. Souhaku says that she was planning to betray him and that he shall destroy the demons she gave birth to. Now tell why does everyone blame Souhaku, but nobody thinks that Makiko might have been upto no good? Nobody even considered it.

That's my main beef. Don't judge people untill you know their motives. They might still turn out to be dead wrong (as Mitsuomi turned out), but you won't know untill you find out.

Judging before you know the relative truth is simply hypocritical.
Last edited by MrProphet on Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Desperto »

I think you should take a deep breath Mr Prophet, and calm youself a little. No one here is trying to be disrespectfull to you in any way, we are all just discussing if Souhaku is evil or not. All coments are appreciated, but lets not get defensive over this, please. Just Oh Great! knows the truth, we are just guessing here.

For me, Souhaku might even have a greater good kind of goal, but so far he seens the least troubled character in TTen, he knows exactly what he is doing and havent hesitated for a moment. And he is doing a lot of disrespectfull, dangerous and evil acts. He is aware of that and dont hesitate for a moment to take those actions, that for me is a quality that only a evil man can have, for the greater good or not, only a evil man can do these things and dont have a moment of doubt or shame.

Thats just my opinion on the matter
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Post by MrProphet »

"Just the facts, Ma'am" (c)
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Post by EliteF22 »

Who's to say that Souhaku is evil. I thought Dougen was an evil bastard when he was first introduced. The guy was willingly to let Shin kill people just so Dougen could try to create the "True Warrior". But after Mitsuomi kicked him out and made become a lowly commoner, he changed. If, and I mean if, Souhaku's goal is to use Souichirou to accumulate all the dragon's within one body and then destroy it, I could see why he's doing it. Time hasn't been kind to those with dragon's, Mataza's mom was a prostitute and one of the reason's Dougen wanted to bring about the "True Warrior" was so that he could as he put it save them. I think its just too soon to go labeling Souhaku as an absolutely evil guy.
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Post by jaguar »

Yeah, right. And who says that Inue is not exaggerating Souhaku's involvement with the reason to make Mitsuomi feel overreliant on Souhaku? I mean, here is a guy that is starting to buckle under pressure. It's just logical that Inue would try to keep him in line by stressing the importance of Souhaku for Mitsuomi. Real importance or exeggerated...
You harp about facts in your post, but the above statement is merely a weak assumption on your part. Mitsuomi does not deny her words, let alone accuse her of exaggerating. She speaks the truth. He knows that he got used by Sohaku. Sohaku is the mastermind.
You are twisting the facts once again. It's not Souhaku's aparent current plan to kill the dragon users, but rather to steal their powers.

All of the 12 flying phoenix general gods are alive except for Natsume Kaima, who was killed by Shin. So, who exactly died?
It's okay to kick people out of their houses, then? On the surface, that sure seems like a bad thing to do. Show me any evidence or facts that all 12 elder heads, like Mataza's pops, deserved to get dethroned.

Sohaku obviously doesn't mind killing to achieve his goals, either. Like someone stated earlier, the Enmas were going to get killed one way or another, all for the sake of Sohaku's goal of the chip.
So, the weight of proof of all that lies on you. The only thing I stated was that Ishiyumi attacked Nagi first, so if Nagi took his dragon, he was only acting in self-defence. If Ishiyumi didn't want that, he shouldn't have picked a fight.

And let me remind you that Ishiyumi wasn't ordered to pick a fight by Souhaku.Ishiyumi himself said that he is fighting Nagi on his own accord to protect Mitsuomi. Same thing with Mataza. Kago just wanted him to get the chip from the Enmi's. Mataza's fight with Nagi is of Mataza's own making.

Wow, Souhaku must be soooo devious to have aranged all of that. If he in fact managed to make Ishiyumi to fall in love with Mitsuomi and try to defend him, if he managed to make Mouki Enmi to come to Natsume residense and managed to make Nagi and Aya go to Kyushyuu (instead of Maya, as was planned), if he managed all of that, my respect for him only grows. 8)

Souhaku must be at least some kind of a demigod to create all of those opportunities. 8)

Loyal my ass! It was expressly stated that Ishiyumi took a great liking to Mitsuomi and that he was more of a Mitsuomi follower that Souhaku's. That
s right there, in the book. You should try it. 8)
Ishiyumi never said that he preferred Mitsuomi over Sohaku. Ishiyumi merely told Nagi that he is a follower of Mitsuomi. That was a lie, of course, because that was the start of the revelation that Ishiyumi and F only pretend to be followers of Mitsuomi. Ishiyumi and F are not going to tell Nagi or anybody else that their leader is actually Sohaku. Nobody even knew that Sohaku had returned, or that he was the driving force behind the turmoil of the 12 families. His presence was revealed only when he went into the hospital and took Nagi.

Ishiyumi was not acting on Mitsuomi's orders or interests. This is made clear when Isuzu demanded that Ishiyumi explain why he went against Mitsuomi's standing order. Ishiyumi ignored Mitsuomi's order because he doesn't take orders from Mitsuomi, he takes them from Sohaku.

Sohaku told Ishiyumi to do surveillance and gather information. Ishiyumi asking the question to Nagi was part of the information gathering. As for the hard facts, Nagi started the fight. Ishiyumi merely asked a question. Nagi could have simply answered, but then he went ahead and threw the first punch.
You mean, he took her in after he killed her parents and then brainwashed her with his magic. Do you think it is evil to turn a child into an orphan, brainwash her, use her, and pretend to care for her? Yes or no?
I'd answer that, if only you didn't invent stuff like "pretend to care" or "use her".
You're in denial. You honestly think Sohaku didn't use her? Then again, all he did was brainwash her and control her actions through magic. But that doesn't constitute as using her, of course. He didn't pretend to care for her? He sweet talks her and tells her that they will be a family when she comes back. Then when she fails her mission and might be potentially dead, Kabuto, the indisputed asshole, is the one showing concern for her, while Sohaku dismisses her as a worthless brat.

Don't dodge the question. Do you think what Sohaku did to Madoka was evil? Yes or no?
Also, Nagi doesn't want to be with Sohaku. Nagi wants to fight with Jyuukenbu. But Sohaku imprisons his own son against his will. Such imprisonment is wrong and evil.

It is not more evil that what Natsume Kaima did to Natsume Shin, or what Dougen did to Mitsuomi. In fact, it's the exact same thing.
It is not any more evil? It's still evil. Sohaku wants to use Nagi for his own purposes, so he denies Nagi his freedom. At best, it is a necessary evil, but it's still undeniably evil.
Then I don't understand what's with this branding of Souhaku... We don't even know his motives or the details of his "adventures", yet we presume to judge him.

That's my main beef. Don't judge people untill you know their motives. They might still turn out to be dead wrong (as Mitsuomi turned out), but you won't know untill you find out.
You say not to judge Sohaku until we know his motives? The whole purpose of this current F arc is to explain Sohaku's motives. It's natural for us to judge Sohaku on what information is being shown to us right now. If the story unfolds so that another side is shown, then I will rethink my assessment of Sohaku's deeds. Until then, I say his methods are evil.
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Post by moyism »

jaguar wrote: Ishiyumi never said that he preferred Mitsuomi over Sohaku. Ishiyumi merely told Nagi that he is a follower of Mitsuomi. That was a lie, of course, because that was the start of the revelation that Ishiyumi and F only pretend to be followers of Mitsuomi. Ishiyumi and F are not going to tell Nagi or anybody else that their leader is actually Sohaku. Nobody even knew that Sohaku had returned, or that he was the driving force behind the turmoil of the 12 families. His presence was revealed only when he went into the hospital and took Nagi.

Ishiyumi was not acting on Mitsuomi's orders or interests. This is made clear when Isuzu demanded that Ishiyumi explain why he went against Mitsuomi's standing order. Ishiyumi ignored Mitsuomi's order because he doesn't take orders from Mitsuomi, he takes them from Sohaku.

Sohaku told Ishiyumi to do surveillance and gather information. Ishiyumi asking the question to Nagi was part of the information gathering. As for the hard facts, Nagi started the fight. Ishiyumi merely asked a question. Nagi could have simply answered, but then he went ahead and threw the first punch.
whoa whoa whoa.. I'm positive even Madoka said that Ishiyumi moved over to Mutsuomi's side and in a sense, left "F".
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Post by kk1 »

MrProphet wrote:
kk1 wrote:I don't need an explanation, since it was pretty darn obvious what was implied by a wedding dress and "be a real family". I'm sure she was manipulated into loving him as a surrogate father too but that still doesn't mean he wasn't manipulating her in to believing he would marry her. And whats all this sex, sex, sex? I don't think sex had anything to do with it when was the last time you heard a young girl talking about marriage and equating it with sex, like you said she's a young girl. How many little girls watching Disney movies seeing the heroine getting married at the end start thinking "oh I want to get married to a prince too...so he can pound me with his throbbing meat stick every night"? It was all amupulation anyway, Sohaku probably maipulated her many, many, ways playing on all the hopes and fears of a young girl.
So, if it wasn't sexual, what's this whole talk about "seducing Madoka"? You just proved my point.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

Man you are stubborn :roll:
seduction

n 1: enticing someone astray from right behavior 2: an act of winning the love or sexual favor of someone

Love OR sexual favour see that OR there or, or, or, seduction doesn't have to involve sex

Quod erat demonstrandum
Last edited by kk1 on Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by kk1 »

moyism wrote:
jaguar wrote: Ishiyumi never said that he preferred Mitsuomi over Sohaku. Ishiyumi merely told Nagi that he is a follower of Mitsuomi. That was a lie, of course, because that was the start of the revelation that Ishiyumi and F only pretend to be followers of Mitsuomi. Ishiyumi and F are not going to tell Nagi or anybody else that their leader is actually Sohaku. Nobody even knew that Sohaku had returned, or that he was the driving force behind the turmoil of the 12 families. His presence was revealed only when he went into the hospital and took Nagi.

Ishiyumi was not acting on Mitsuomi's orders or interests. This is made clear when Isuzu demanded that Ishiyumi explain why he went against Mitsuomi's standing order. Ishiyumi ignored Mitsuomi's order because he doesn't take orders from Mitsuomi, he takes them from Sohaku.

Sohaku told Ishiyumi to do surveillance and gather information. Ishiyumi asking the question to Nagi was part of the information gathering. As for the hard facts, Nagi started the fight. Ishiyumi merely asked a question. Nagi could have simply answered, but then he went ahead and threw the first punch.
whoa whoa whoa.. I'm positive even Madoka said that Ishiyumi moved over to Mutsuomi's side and in a sense, left "F".
No she says he was charmed by him and pledged loyalty to him from the bottom of his heart. He was still part of F as evidenced by them all meeting at the hospital after his fight with Nagi.

Also in her remembrances Madoka says 8 years ago Sohaku dedicated himself to the slaughter of the 12 founding families. So as to the general discussion now going on is killing the 12 founding families good or evil? Even if the 12 families are evil I don't see how killing can ever be good as someone innocent (like children) always end up getting killed too.
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Post by Agent_Wax »

Not exactly. The ones that attacked the temple were Takayanagi men. Emni sisters say it outright. The ones that were with Mataza in Kyushyu were Yorihira's former comrades-in-arms.
This is kinda splitting hairs, but anyway...
The bunch who attacked the Enmi was the same as the ones with Mataza in Kyushu. The are Tsumuji soldiers, but Tsumuji soldiers are just a subgroup of the overall Takayanagi army, hence, Enmi calling them Takayanagi troops. Takayanagi is a front for Souhaku, the invisible puppeteer, for lack of a better term. So when Takayanagi troops are carrying out orders from Souhaku, filtered through Takayanagi, they're technically Souhaku's troops, even though they are Takayanagi ON PAPER.


The chain of Command:

Code: Select all

                                       Souhaku
                                             |
                                             |
                  --------------------------------------------------------
                  |                                                      | 
                 F                                       Mitsuomi Takayanagi
                                                                         |
                                                                         |
                                                            --------------------------
                                                           |                          |
                          Toudou Gakuen Executive Committee                   36 Families

And about the deposing of the original leaders: A revolution can be good or bad, or neither. It all depends on your point of view. I'm partial, however, to say that whether it is good or bad depends primarily on the methods. If a genocide following a coup occurs, no amount of justification can make the revolution 'good', whatever the intentions were at first.
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Post by TW_J »

MrProphet wrote:Stealing the potentially evil powers of people who can potentially do pretty bad stuff is good, yes.
if souhaku wanted to take out the dragon users soo much he would be considered evil for manipulating and controlling them for his own purposes to kill people which he is
MrProphet wrote:The only thing I stated was that Ishiyumi attacked Nagi first, so if Nagi took his dragon, he was only acting in self-defence. If Ishiyumi didn't want that, he shouldn't have picked a fight.
ishyumi didnt attack souichirou first he just told him that mitsoumi is someone he wishes to fight for meaning that he's souichirou's enemy but they started the fight at the same time ishyumi didnt attack him first
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Post by Agent_Wax »

ishyumi didnt attack souichirou first he just told him that mitsoumi is someone he wishes to fight for meaning that he's souichirou's enemy but they started the fight at the same time ishyumi didnt attack him first
Ishiyumi didn't strike first, but the reason he went looking for Souichiro (aside from information gathering) was to give him a beatdown... so, yes, he was looking for a fight (because Soichirou humiliated his idol), whether or not he started it. If Souichiro had not taken the initiative, he would likely have thrown the first strike.
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Post by MrProphet »

jaguar wrote:You harp about facts in your post, but the above statement is merely a weak assumption on your part. Mitsuomi does not deny her words, let alone accuse her of exaggerating. She speaks the truth. He knows that he got used by Sohaku. Sohaku is the mastermind.
It's not an assumption, it's what Mitsuomi himself has said previously.

What Inue said contradicts Mitsuomi's own words. One of them has to be false or at least misleading. Who do you trust more, Inue or Mitsuomi, that's the question.
It's okay to kick people out of their houses, then? On the surface, that sure seems like a bad thing to do. Show me any evidence or facts that all 12 elder heads, like Mataza's pops, deserved to get dethroned.
Once again, I am not here to prove anything. It was you who said that Souhaku killed the 12 general gods. I proved that he did not.
Sohaku obviously doesn't mind killing to achieve his goals, either. Like someone stated earlier, the Enmas were going to get killed one way or another, all for the sake of Sohaku's goal of the chip.
Souhaku only ordered to get the chip. The rest is on Mataza. You can't blame Souhaku for Mataza's actions.
Ishiyumi never said that he preferred Mitsuomi over Sohaku. Ishiyumi merely told Nagi that he is a follower of Mitsuomi. That was a lie, of course, because that was the start of the revelation that Ishiyumi and F only pretend to be followers of Mitsuomi. Ishiyumi and F are not going to tell Nagi or anybody else that their leader is actually Sohaku. Nobody even knew that Sohaku had returned, or that he was the driving force behind the turmoil of the 12 families. His presence was revealed only when he went into the hospital and took Nagi.
That's certainly stretching it. 8)

Like you were told by others, Ishiyumi is firmly in Mitsuomi's camp. That's based on both his words to Nagi, and his actions in the Kago compound in this chapter.
Ishiyumi was not acting on Mitsuomi's orders or interests. This is made clear when Isuzu demanded that Ishiyumi explain why he went against Mitsuomi's standing order. Ishiyumi ignored Mitsuomi's order because he doesn't take orders from Mitsuomi, he takes them from Sohaku.
A loyal follower, thinks he is doing all in his power to protect his master, even if contradicts his orders. It's a common theme.

Please.... read... Volume... 12.... page... 56 and 57...
Sohaku told Ishiyumi to do surveillance and gather information. Ishiyumi asking the question to Nagi was part of the information gathering. As for the hard facts, Nagi started the fight. Ishiyumi merely asked a question. Nagi could have simply answered, but then he went ahead and threw the first punch.
Ishiyumi: That's why... I will not permit anyone to become an obstacle to Mitsuomi-san.

Nagi: And I thought for the first time I have made a new friend in my class.

Ishiyumi: Oh, you still can... As long as you feel like living the rest of your life in bed. Every day, I'll come and visit you.


If that's not not a direct threat to at least beat Nagi to a pulp, then what is?
You're in denial. You honestly think Sohaku didn't use her? Then again, all he did was brainwash her and control her actions through magic. But that doesn't constitute as using her, of course. He didn't pretend to care for her? He sweet talks her and tells her that they will be a family when she comes back. Then when she fails her mission and might be potentially dead, Kabuto, the indisputed asshole, is the one showing concern for her, while Sohaku dismisses her as a worthless brat.
From the manga it is quite obvious, that the only thing his magic ball did was supress her memory of him killing her parents.

The rest she did on her own. The errand and the rest.
Don't dodge the question. Do you think what Sohaku did to Madoka was evil? Yes or no?
He took her in, trained her, acted as her surrogate father. Doesn't seem evil to me.

As far as whether killing older Mawari's was good or bad, I can't answer that untill I know why he did it and what they were like. For all I know, they could have been Dougen look-alikes.
It is not any more evil? It's still evil. Sohaku wants to use Nagi for his own purposes, so he denies Nagi his freedom. At best, it is a necessary evil, but it's still undeniably evil.
Dangerous criminals are denied freedom as well. Is it a necessary evil?
You say not to judge Sohaku until we know his motives? The whole purpose of this current F arc is to explain Sohaku's motives. It's natural for us to judge Sohaku on what information is being shown to us right now. If the story unfolds so that another side is shown, then I will rethink my assessment of Sohaku's deeds. Until then, I say his methods are evil.
Souhaku's motives are still a mystery to me. You can say whatever you want, if you think that whatever was shown us of Souhaku was enough.

I care to disagree.
kk1 wrote:Man you are stubborn :roll:
seduction

n 1: enticing someone astray from right behavior 2: an act of winning the love or sexual favor of someone

Love OR sexual favour see that OR there or, or, or, seduction doesn't have to involve sex

Quod erat demonstrandum
So, every time I say to my girlfriend that I love her, I am seducing her? Every time a father says to a daughter that he loves her, he is secuding her?

Jeez, that's new. 8)
kk1 wrote:Also in her remembrances Madoka says 8 years ago Sohaku dedicated himself to the slaughter of the 12 founding families. So as to the general discussion now going on is killing the 12 founding families good or evil? Even if the 12 families are evil I don't see how killing can ever be good as someone innocent (like children) always end up getting killed too.
Doesn't that suggest to you that since all of the remainign 12 general gods are OK people (and that's figurative, since Dougen is quite an asshole), then the ones that Souhaku did kill were bad?

Not proven, of course, but you can't prove they were good either, right? 8)

There's this thing... presumption of innocence... I can't say Souhaku did a bad thing untill i see some proof that his victims were innocent.
TW_J wrote:if souhaku wanted to take out the dragon users soo much he would be considered evil for manipulating and controlling them for his own purposes to kill people which he is
I don't really understand what you just said there. Souhaku is evil because he is killing dangerous dragon users?
TW_J wrote:ishyumi didnt attack souichirou first he just told him that mitsoumi is someone he wishes to fight for meaning that he's souichirou's enemy but they started the fight at the same time ishyumi didnt attack him first
Read above. Ishiyumi clearly implies that he is there to cripple or seriously hurt Nagi to prevent him from harming Mitsuomi. Yeah, he wasn't planning to attack.. right. 8)
Agent_Wax wrote:This is kinda splitting hairs, but anyway...
Hard to say. I doubt that Mitsuomi is following Souhaku's orders. That's just so unlike Mitsuomi. I think on the surface they are partners, but Souhaku is influencing Mitsuomi because he is older, more experienced, has more connections, etc.

It's not a clear cut "master/servant" relationship, more like a "kouhai/senpai" thing.
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Post by kk1 »

[quote="MrProphet"]
So, every time I say to my girlfriend that I love her, I am seducing her? Every time a father says to a daughter that he loves her, he is secuding her?

Jeez, that's new. 8)

[quote]

Are you retarded or something? I don't know how I can dumb it down any more than I already have.
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Post by MrProphet »

I just love the ad hominem attacks. Always the best indication that the opponent has given up on a real discussion.

Let me spell it out for you.

Souhaku acted as Madoka's surrogate father: he took her in, he raised her, gave her food and shelter. Now he asks her to do an errand for him and is giving her a dress as a present for this errand. Madoka, in her "little girl mind" imagines the dress being as "wedding dress", since she idolizes him.

Now where among all of those do we have Souhaku molesting her?

PS If all you have to answer is another ad hominem attack, don't bother posting it. Just pm it, or, better yet, don't bother at all.
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Post by FuguTabetai »

Hm, I'm not sure. Certainly, Madoka could be reading things into it, and with us as her narrator, we could have a distorted view of things.

I'm inclined to believe that Souhaku is preying on her (previous!) admiration of him, and just trying to manipulate her though.
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Post by MrProphet »

Aparently, someone has already released Fugu's Chapter 80 on BT. WooHoo... KiShodar is back as the editor! I think I may go back to Fugu's releases. Let's see what the guys from E-G do to chapter 80.

Since Fugu aparently doesn't release TJTG anymore, I'm not giving a direct link to the torrent, but you can find it on regular torrent-site collections.

Only thing...Fugu, it's "shepherd", not "shepard". 8)
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Post by moyism »

yea for KiShodar! Thought something weird was up when I noticed how clean everything was, considering fugu usually doesn't do that.

good stuff. a lot easier to read than looking at the text tranlsations and raws back and forth.
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Post by MrProphet »

Just use GMAO. 8)
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Post by kk1 »

MrProphet wrote:I just love the ad hominem attacks. Always the best indication that the opponent has given up on a real discussion.

Let me spell it out for you.

Souhaku acted as Madoka's surrogate father: he took her in, he raised her, gave her food and shelter. Now he asks her to do an errand for him and is giving her a dress as a present for this errand. Madoka, in her "little girl mind" imagines the dress being as "wedding dress", since she idolizes him.

Now where among all of those do we have Souhaku molesting her?

PS If all you have to answer is another ad hominem attack, don't bother posting it. Just pm it, or, better yet, don't bother at all.
I have repeatedly said Sohaku's manipulation of Madoka involves no sex whatsoever, it's you that keeps bringing up a sexual aspect to it. I even got the dictionary definition of seduction to show you it doesn't have to involve sex. You then put forth the outlandish idea if it doesn't involve sex then if someone tells someone they love them they must be seducing that person, and now you're back to sex again. This is why I must ask if you are retarded, becuase this isn't a normal level of stupidity.
I'll try again and if you don't get it this time, I don't know what else I can do.
He is manipulating Madoka's feelings to get her to do what he wants, that is seduction. He obviously also manipulated Fu'chien to do what he wanted but didn't try to develop a relationship (and before you even say it, by relationship I don't mean a sexual one) to get him to do it. That is not seduction do you see the difference? If it was simply using his power to control her than no it would not be seduction but since he got her to think she loved him (even just as a father figure) that qualifies as seduction period. If you want to argue that the wedding dress (and yes it was a wedding dress, I don't know of too many other types of dresses that are white with lace, a veil and you carry a bouquet of flowers with,if so please tell me) and his saying "we will be a real family" doesn't mean he led her to believe he would marry her, fine. But what else could it mean? He'll legally adopt her and sign the papers when she gets back? Marry a relative of hers and become her uncle? Why are you so obsessed with denying such an obvious plot point? Will it kill you to admit you were wrong or something?
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