New in Tenjou Tenge... need help...

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Faust Am
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New in Tenjou Tenge... need help...

Post by Faust Am » Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:25 am

Warning...

I'm a noob and don't really understand what Tenjou Tenge is all about...

Well...

First of all...

1. Did Maya and Masataka have some kind of powers???

I think I remember reading that Maya got some kind of Wood Elemental… maybe I didn’t read it right though…

2. What I the reason or meaning “feed Nagi with powersâ€￾??? Is it some kind of absorb power and then able to use that power…

3. What is Nagi ability actually??? Is it only Forged Needle attack or what???

4. What did actually happen in the flashback??? I understand if it’s just about how Shin died… but now there were lots of things I don’t really understand… for example… what’s going on with Mitsuomi coup’ and what these all have to do with Souhaku???

Well… at any rate… forgive my stupid ness and numbness…

I really hope someone can explain these to me…

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Post by solidis1 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:46 pm

First things first. Where are you up to in the manga so we can tell what you know about it? Then I or someone else can help.

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Post by kk1 » Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:08 pm

solidis1 wrote:First things first. Where are you up to in the manga so we can tell what you know about it? Then I or someone else can help.
Yeah if you read the manga all the answers are there.

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Post by Faust Am » Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:35 am

well... in that case... i tihink i'll re read the manga 2 or 3 times again... maybe i'll understand a few things afterwards (the so-called 12 families or whatever)...

Now the only thing that still confuse me is -

I remember Ryuzaki has somekind of fire attacks... since he is Fire Element...

Is this means Maya has somekind of power too since she is Wood Element???

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Post by Agent_Wax » Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:06 am

Is this means Maya has somekind of power too since she is Wood Element???
Well, she can give some of the forum members wood, if that's what you mean... :lol:

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Post by Dominant Star » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:47 am

well... don really understand this...

but... Fu Chi'en was Earth Element... and he did have some electricity power...

Ryuzaki - Fire... so he did have some fire technique...

Um.... did you remember how maya defeat Ryuzaki using only a wig... maybe that has somekind of connection with wood element??? :roll:

but in the same time... Saga MAsk did say something about he and maya doesn't have any power but still be able to defeat Ryuzaki... :roll:

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Sorry for very bad grammar :lol:
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Post by FuguTabetai » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:14 am

Maya also later used a branch to split a rock while training (in the later UJ chapters, puts it in volume 12 maybe.)

I don't think she has any particular "wood powers", but she does have a kind of natural motif.

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:43 am

Nagi has a Red Belt Earth Dragon gate (like Fu Chi'en) and he used lighting in his fight with Ishiyumi. That is apart from his Dragon Fist, with is an 8th dragon gate.

So, Air Tiger Hidden Spirits, Metal Silk Voice, Blue Belt Wood, Green Belt Wing, Yellow Belt Fire, Orange Belt Water and Red Belt Earth are natural Dragon Gates availible to everyone with enough training and ki.

Only the 8th Dragon Gate is exclusive to the 12 Founding families. That's the one Maya can't use because she is the sheath for Reiki.

But she certainly can use her normal dragon gate. The only reason she does not, is because she has accumulated this incredible amount of ki in the last 2 years to fight with Mitsuomi and she doesn't want to waste in on chumps like Ryuuzaki or even to heal her broken arm.

People who've been saying Maya is weak... wow, I can't wait for her to show us what she really can do, when she isn't holding back. 8)

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Post by hitori » Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:55 am

I think Maya defeated Ryuzaki with a twig just to rub it in his face.

In the East Asian tradition of the "5 Ways", there are 5 elements: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water.
Basically: Fire has natural superiority over Wood.

Maya used the 'weaker' element to defeat Ryuzaki's 'stronger' element showing off her superior power that can overcome the inherent handicap.
People who grew up with this concept (like me. my family's very much in to this Fengshui, etc thing) would have immediately recognized this relationship and the implied meaning behind it when Maya contemplated Ryuzaki's natural powers and almost playfully picked a twig as her weapon of choice. :wink:

Just my two cents.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:58 pm

See my post at the bottom of the 3rd page in the chap 79 discussion. Basically everyoneone uses ki and there are 7 gates associated with wood, earth, water, etc so basically to use that ki energy you must use the element that facilitates it, and different people have discovered it's easier for them using different elements. So Nagi and Fuchien had to be in contact with the earth, Maya has to be touching wood(so basically all she needs is to be holding a small twig) Ishiyumi had to be touching water, and Ryuzaki was always smoking a cigarette. The 8th Dragon's gate of the red feathers doesn't need an element, and so with nothing to facilitate it is the most difficult to open.

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Post by Faust Am » Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:39 pm

ooo... uhuh....

I see... so basically everyone in Tenjou tenge have some supernatural power's depending on their element...

But... one more thing...

What kind of power is this 8th Dagon's gate???

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Post by solidis1 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:10 pm

From what I understand, Nagi's Dragon Punch is one of the 8 techniques along with Dragon's eye, pupil, claw, roar, and others. Basically this technique steals the dragon, the colored ones that were previously stated a couple posts up, that people have within them and makes it their own.

Anyone care to elaborate on this.

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Post by moyism » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:10 pm

8th Dragon Gate power various. We assume, since there are 12 Red Feather families that wield the ability that there are 12 unique 8th dragon gate powers. However, there are also lessen versions of said powers.

er... there's a thread somewhere that we talked about this. Sorry, but I'm too lazy to look myself but I know its there (since I remember asking the same question too). :wink:

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:23 pm

It depends on the family.

Hotaru's dragon palm is healing. Natsume's dragon eye is seeing the future and past. Nagi's dragon fist can steal others' dragons and use them.

Shoujou, Kabane and Kago dragons are yet unknown. We suspect that Kago's has something to do with mindcontrol and maybe necromancy.

Also, each of the Red Founding Families has a bunch of minor families under their control. Each of those families has a variation of the Founding family's Dragon Gate. Natsume's Enmi family has dragon pupil. Shyukyou's family has Dragon Claw, and so on.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:58 pm

moyism wrote:8th Dragon Gate power various. We assume, since there are 12 Red Feather families that wield the ability that there are 12 unique 8th dragon gate powers. However, there are also lessen versions of said powers.

er... there's a thread somewhere that we talked about this. Sorry, but I'm too lazy to look myself but I know its there (since I remember asking the same question too). :wink:
No just six, as only the red feather families have them and not the 6 white feather families.

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Post by moyism » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:18 am

^ my bad. :oops:

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Post by kk1 » Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:33 am

Faust Am wrote:ooo... uhuh....

I see... so basically everyone in Tenjou tenge have some supernatural power's depending on their element...

But... one more thing...

What kind of power is this 8th Dagon's gate???
No, not everyone. Everyone has the 7 gates, but not everyone can open them. Only those who have done extensive training. But still some people just don't even use those either, Isuzu Emi uses her ki but only to physically manipulate her own body(Maya does this too),and Bunchichi is extremely powerful but it has nothing to do with any extra power, he's just strong. Bob, Kagarazka, Sagara, Tagami, Kurei, and Sugano(asshat) all have no powers and can't open any gates. Takayanagi and Mitsuomi also have no powers and are just extremely good martial artists, except Shin shot an enormous amount of ki into Mitsuomi that allows him to speed up his metabolism for up to 3 minutes making him virtually unbeatable (however this has also shortened his life to the point that he won't live much longer).
Some people born into the red feather families also have the 8th gate but even then not all of them can use it, it's been stated that only through intense traing , or very strong emotions(they had to make Nagi think his mother was threatened to get him to open his), or even an accident (Mataza only could open his after a shard went into his eye and penetrated to his brain). Shin's it seems was activated by the sword Reiki (and before you ask), Reiki sucks the power out of you and you have to confront that power (as explained by Shin in vol 5). Jyukon Onmyou entrapped all the power of evil Buddhist cerimonies into it, it reacts to the power of the person weilding it, causing rain (as it did when Aya first took it, Nagi's mom said the rain was caused by a water elemental, which leads me to belive Aya's element is water, in chap 76 it also rained when she was using her power and when she went outside the rain spread around her) or lead the person on a killing spree (as it did to Shin), it's effect is widely influenced by the weilder (as explained by Maya in vol 4), and for someone with no power (Maya) it does nothing.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:53 am

hitori wrote:I think Maya defeated Ryuzaki with a twig just to rub it in his face.

In the East Asian tradition of the "5 Ways", there are 5 elements: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water.
Basically: Fire has natural superiority over Wood.

Maya used the 'weaker' element to defeat Ryuzaki's 'stronger' element showing off her superior power that can overcome the inherent handicap.
People who grew up with this concept (like me. my family's very much in to this Fengshui, etc thing) would have immediately recognized this relationship and the implied meaning behind it when Maya contemplated Ryuzaki's natural powers and almost playfully picked a twig as her weapon of choice. :wink:

Just my two cents.
Just for reference.

Destructive:
Water quenches Fire
Fire melts Metal
Metal cuts Wood
Wood penetrates Earth
Earth absorbs Water

Constructive / Creative:
Water nourishes Wood
Wood feeds Fire
Fire creates Earth (ash)
Earth births Metal
Metal condenses Water (no, it doesn't make sense to me, either)

Maya lost to Fu (Earth beats Wood)
Ryuzaki lost to Maya (Wood beats Fire)
Soichirou lost to Ishiyumi (Water beats Earth)

Seems like the subversion is a common motif.

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:14 am

I am already imagining Ishiyumi "nourishing" Maya. :oops:

Go Maya! Dump the short kid and the muscle freak for the more stylish guy. 8)

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Post by Dominant Star » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:34 am

hm... basically... everyone "can" have supernatural power (dunno what to cal them) if they practise... but only few special can wield the power of 8th Gate??? Am i right???


MrProphet wrote:People who've been saying Maya is weak... wow, I can't wait for her to show us what she really can do, when she isn't holding back. 8)
Haha... i like this... but... i think she already become really strong...

At least... we can say she's the strongest female in this manga... right???


* Finally i can understand why she need to stay in her chibi form... it's like collecting ki or something... and prevent it from coming out... so... it can be unleashed when the time comes??? So... she did have some hope defeating mitsuomi eh???
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Post by kk1 » Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:47 am

Agent_Wax wrote: Just for reference.

Destructive:
Water quenches Fire
Fire melts Metal
Metal cuts Wood
Wood penetrates Earth
Earth absorbs Water

Constructive / Creative:
Water nourishes Wood
Wood feeds Fire
Fire creates Earth (ash)
Earth births Metal
Metal condenses Water (no, it doesn't make sense to me, either)

Maya lost to Fu (Earth beats Wood)
Ryuzaki lost to Maya (Wood beats Fire)
Soichirou lost to Ishiyumi (Water beats Earth)

Seems like the subversion is a common motif.
But Souichirou beat Ishiyumi(or are you saying that was due to the Dragon's gate and without it would have lost?)
Fu also beat Aya, and I'm guessing she is water, so how does that work? I don't understand how you get what beats what.

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Post by hitori » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:09 pm

kk1 wrote:Fu also beat Aya, and I'm guessing she is water, so how does that work? I don't understand how you get what beats what.
Sheesh settle down.
You should perhaps read other people's posts a bit more carefully.
AgentWax only posted that relationship chart to give further explanation to what I wrote about Wood vs Fire elements.

I just said what I thought was interesting and in no way claimed it was the absolute and unfallable truth.
There is no direct relationship between Oh!Great's Tenjou Tenge manga and the 5 Ways philosophy of East Asia.

Oh!Great and Tenjou Tenge(TM) are properties of respectful owners and used here without their consent.
Not all statements made on this forum are oracles from God.
Residency restrictions may apply.
See God and or Oh!Great for details.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:01 pm

hitori wrote:
kk1 wrote:Fu also beat Aya, and I'm guessing she is water, so how does that work? I don't understand how you get what beats what.
Sheesh settle down.
.
Huh? Did I get excited? I just thought it was interesting and wanted to now how it worked. What's your problem?

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Post by Faust Am » Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:25 am

hm...

About Nagi's ability to absorb other's power...

Is it apply to every power in Tenten... or only special 8th Gate's???

I mean...

Well... if someone like Ishiyumi... Nagi can absorb his power...

But... if...um... they feed someone like Maya, Ryuzaki or Bunshinchi to Nagi... will nagi be able to absorb their power..

======================================================

And... i still can't understand a thing about elementals and Dragons... is it same or different thing...

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Post by MrProphet » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:16 am

If Ishiyumi is any indication, then yes, logically, Nagi you be able to steal regular dragon gates from anyone.

But, personally, I find it highly illogical. If an 8th gate seems to be genetical, unique feature, the first 7 gates are not unique to anyone, they are just a function of one's training, amount of ki and personality.

So, how can you loose any of that? It's not like Ishiyumi "un-learned" his Water Dragon all of a sudden. It's not like you can undo your training and knowledge of how to access a dragon gate, right?

On the other hand, Ishiyumi said that his Water Dragon is weeping, implying that it's not the dragon that was stolen, but the Dragon's Gate itself, a link, or an ability to link with the power of the dragon.

You see, Dragons are not unique to anyone (except the Black Dragon, which is unique to the Red Feathers). So, two, three, four people can have the same dragon. That suggests that the Dragon is a highly metaphysical thing, it does not exist "somewhere", least of all in the body of it's weilder. It's not even an actual "dragon" of myths. It is a Dragon Gate that connects the user to the "well of power" somewhere, a power that we call "dragon".

So, what exactly did Nagi steal?

Not the Dragon, since Aya still posseses her Water gate even after Ishiyumi lost his.

Not the knowledge of how to link with that power through the Gate. I find it ludicrous that one can "un-learn" something aquired through training and exersize.

So, it must be some kind of an "ability" to link with the dragon power through the Dragon Gate, right? But, that would go against the logic that anyone can access the dragon power with enough training and dedication. It would mean that besides training, one must also possess some kind of a unique "ability". The one that Nagi has stolen.

Or, there is no such ability, and the idea of everyone having a dragon gate (chakra) is still valid. But then, what did Nagi steal????

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Post by Faust Am » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:51 am

OK... so basically if Souhaku kidnapped Masataka, Maya or Bunshichi... they can become one of Nagi's food as well???

well.. still about this stealing ability-thingie...

Did Kaguroi Tetsuhito have the same ability as Nagi??? Just read Chapter 75.... the alien boy stated something i don't really understand... and then Aya and Madoka says something which makes me thinking about Tetsuhito real ability...



* This thing reminds me of Hunter X Hunter... where Kuroro Lucifer have somekind of ability to steal others Nen ability... then prevent them to use it anymore....

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Post by kk1 » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:32 pm

Faust Am wrote:OK... so basically if Souhaku kidnapped Masataka, Maya or Bunshichi... they can become one of Nagi's food as well???

well.. still about this stealing ability-thingie...

Did Kaguroi Tetsuhito have the same ability as Nagi??? Just read Chapter 75.... the alien boy stated something i don't really understand... and then Aya and Madoka says something which makes me thinking about Tetsuhito real ability...



* This thing reminds me of Hunter X Hunter... where Kuroro Lucifer have somekind of ability to steal others Nen ability... then prevent them to use it anymore....
No except Maya they don't use dragons, so maybe her but not the others.
I think that is precisely what is implied(did you read my post on the 3rd page of the chap 79 discussion?) since he uses 2 powers how else did he get the second?

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Post by kk1 » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:39 pm

MrProphet wrote:If Ishiyumi is any indication, then yes, logically, Nagi you be able to steal regular dragon gates from anyone.

But, personally, I find it highly illogical. If an 8th gate seems to be genetical, unique feature, the first 7 gates are not unique to anyone, they are just a function of one's training, amount of ki and personality.

So, how can you loose any of that? It's not like Ishiyumi "un-learned" his Water Dragon all of a sudden. It's not like you can undo your training and knowledge of how to access a dragon gate, right?

On the other hand, Ishiyumi said that his Water Dragon is weeping, implying that it's not the dragon that was stolen, but the Dragon's Gate itself, a link, or an ability to link with the power of the dragon.

You see, Dragons are not unique to anyone (except the Black Dragon, which is unique to the Red Feathers). So, two, three, four people can have the same dragon. That suggests that the Dragon is a highly metaphysical thing, it does not exist "somewhere", least of all in the body of it's weilder. It's not even an actual "dragon" of myths. It is a Dragon Gate that connects the user to the "well of power" somewhere, a power that we call "dragon".

So, what exactly did Nagi steal?

Not the Dragon, since Aya still posseses her Water gate even after Ishiyumi lost his.

Not the knowledge of how to link with that power through the Gate. I find it ludicrous that one can "un-learn" something aquired through training and exersize.

So, it must be some kind of an "ability" to link with the dragon power through the Dragon Gate, right? But, that would go against the logic that anyone can access the dragon power with enough training and dedication. It would mean that besides training, one must also possess some kind of a unique "ability". The one that Nagi has stolen.

Or, there is no such ability, and the idea of everyone having a dragon gate (chakra) is still valid. But then, what did Nagi steal????
They are "dragons" or "demons" (Mitsuomi talks about it at the bowling alley)and Nagi's ate Ishiyumi's, remember they can "eat" the user too. Nagi's mom's eye (Nagi's foot almost).

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