Fight 81

HappyStealer · Post by **HappyStealer** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:41 am

kk1 wrote:Oh cool in re-reading that(vol 11) I just realized something, 8 years ago Souhaku had Makiko absorb lots of ki so the resonance would activate latent red feather powers that's what Souhaku has been doing with Nagi. His resonating power will activate everyone's power so Souhaku will know who to kill like he did back then, now we know why Kagiro finally brought back out his sword. Looks like it's gonna be a bloodbath at the election tournement.

Hmm you might be on to something......

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:58 am

MrProphet wrote:No... the "extra power" is increasing his metabolism, and he is dying because of that, not because of the extra power itself (BTW, it's also the reason why he became so huge, his body's chemical processes just sped up).

Metabolism is basically the process of convertion of complex compounds (like food, say) into energy. With Mitsuomi, the process has sped up exponentially, thus he is getting much more energy from usual activities that normal people do, because it's getting converted faster. Because he has more energy, he is much stronger than normal people. Unfortunately, the adverse effect of faster total metabolism is that your body ages faster and that the risk of heart or kidney failure is much larger. They've never really explained what exactly will kill him, but I am guessing that one of those...

So, if they remove to source of the power that screws up his system, his metabilism should stabilize.

There is nothing wrong with his body itself. The damage from the Forged Needle blast Shin gave him has healed up pretty quickly (remember his visit to the hospital with Isuzu?). The problem is not his internal situation, it's rather the external factor that's messing with his health up.

No, you have it slightly misunderstood. It's his heart that will kill him, his heart rate was increased beyond the normal maximum. The max for a normal 18 year old is 202 bpm Mittsuomi's goes over that(which is impossible and will a kill a normal person) for those 3 minute intervals and that is what gives him his larger metabolism, power etc during those 3 minutes. Mana explained it in vol 7. However that increase is just not sustainable for a human heart and it could explode at any time, he could have died that first day. But she said at most he had 2 or 3 years. His heart is not "always" beating that fast, and his metabolism isn't "always" higher. Mitsuomi's size is just a result of training and diet not his metabolism(though obviously his "condition" allows him to train harder and with a higher metabolism than most people).
In fact after reading that it doesn't seem like the damage can be reversed, by removing ki. Otherwise Mitsuomi could have just used up as much ki as he could or had the dragon palm drain it . Maybe a heart transplant? Pacemaker?

MrProphet · Post by **MrProphet** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:58 am

Well, in reality (sic!), the "gate" is just another word for chakra. Chakra "opening" techniques are just a method of opening yourself to a flow of chi (or ki, or whatever).

The weird abilities are just the way Oh!great's universe people use the ki, but in actuality, all it is, is just a gate for ki.

So, Mitsuomi doesn't really have to bust out any weird techniques if he has a ki-gate. Everyone has it with enough training. Mitsuomi just got a crash course in it by getting blasted by Shin.

And I am telling you, increased heart rate is NOT a by product of any injury, it's just what happens when you process energy faster (like Mitsuomi does). Heart needs to pump more blood to get that energy (in form of sugar) around the body. Really, I'm not going to give a lecture on medicine here, just trust me, that's how it is...

As for KK1's idea.. VERY interesting. He may indeed be on to something...

MrProphet · Post by **MrProphet** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:00 am

No, you have it slightly misunderstood.

Oh, please... just read what I've said more carefully!

Unfortunately, the adverse effect of faster total metabolism is that your body ages faster and that the risk of heart or kidney failure is much larger.

I was saying the exact same thing, you know.

Mitsuomi's size is just a result of training and diet not his metabolism

Yes it is. Training is the means by which compounds are converted into energy. The process of that is called.. guess what... metabolism.

Really now... just GOOGLE!

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:07 am

kujoe wrote:
I don't even know if Mitsuomi even uses a gate in the first place--in fact, just like Masataka, he relies on his fighting skills and ki techniques rather than a non-8th gate. Looking at it this way, I find it hard to comprehend how Nagi's Dragon's Fist can reverse Mitsuomi's condition--considering that Mitsuomi has also shown no gate that can be eaten.

In fact, if this were so, then it also becomes possible that Maya wouldn't even need to wait for the Tournament. Just set Nagi loose and the problem is solved. And besides, if the bowling alley fight is any indication, Nagi can definitely survive the first 3 minutes long enough to use his 8th gate.

I think you're right, though all the Takayanagi's use "ki" related attacks, none use gates. It just looks like that's exactly why Maya wanted Nagi in the first place just to beat Mitsuomi after those 3 unbeatable minutes. And after rereading the whole bowling alley fight it seems that's exactly why Mitsuomi tried to take him out so early, he knew he'd lose.
I guess Maya just really wants to stop Mitsuomi, not save his life. Ah well it was a romantic thought.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:15 am

MrProphet wrote:
No, you have it slightly misunderstood.
Oh, please... just read what I've said more carefully!

Unfortunately, the adverse effect of faster total metabolism is that your body ages faster and that the risk of heart or kidney failure is much larger.
I was saying the exact same thing, you know.

Mitsuomi's size is just a result of training and diet not his metabolism
Yes it is. Training is the means by which compounds are converted into energy. The process of that is called.. guess what... metabolism.

Really now... just GOOGLE!

I have a pre-med degree I know what metabolism is

And I said "slightly" not totally misunderstood, his metabolism wasn't permanently changed by Shin's attack, only his heart rate which for 3 minute intervals only, gives him an increased metabolism.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:27 am

MrProphet wrote:
And I am telling you, increased heart rate is NOT a by product of any injury, it's just what happens when you process energy faster (like Mitsuomi does). Heart needs to pump more blood to get that energy (in form of sugar) around the body. Really, I'm not going to give a lecture on medicine here, just trust me, that's how it is...

No, I have a very high metabolism but I don't have a very high heart rate in fact mine is probably lower than someone with a lower metabolism. Healtier stronger hearts don't have to beat as much as weaker ones that need to move blood around to more mass (usually fat). If you are correct and Mitsuomi's increased metabolism(which you are saying is constant)=increased heart rate(which if it causes it it must also always be constantly high) then why isn't Mitsuomi constantly panting like a dog to suck in enough oxygen to keep up with his metabolism, or are you going to tell me it's anerobic? And if so then why is'nt he in constant cramping pain from the incredible lactic acid build up in his muscles? Perhaps you should Google again

MrProphet · Post by **MrProphet** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:42 am

Define "high" then... Because if Mits is actually dying from it, his heart rate must be crazy. Remember how f-ed up he was after his Final fight in the Tournament in vol.7 ?

And anyway, I am more interested in it's causes and in how Maya is planning to get rid of it. Like I said, I think his high rate of metabolism (with everything that comes with it) is the result the chakra gate opened by Shin.

It's just highly unlikely (even given the overall "magical" nature of all of it) that some kind of an internal injury is letting Mitsuomi generate all this ki. There must be a gate because that's where the ki comes for everyone! Just that some people can use it to do weirder and weirder stuff (like the Red Feathers).

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:49 am

MrProphet wrote:Define "high" then... Because if Mits is actually dying from it, his heart rate must be crazy. Remember how f-ed up he was after his Final fight in the Tournament in vol.7 ?

And anyway, I am more interested in it's causes and in how Maya is planning to get rid of it. Like I said, I think his high rate of metabolism (with everything that comes with it) is the result the chakra gate opened by Shin.

It's just highly unlikely (even given the overall "magical" nature of all of it) that some kind of an internal injury is letting Mitsuomi generate all this ki. There must be a gate because that's where the ki comes for everyone! Just that some people can use it to do weirder and weirder stuff (like the Red Feathers).

Read my first response to you, 220-your age is your max heart rate, for Mitsuomi his normal max is 202 now or 204(+/- 15 for error) when he fought Shin, it now goes well over that, they don't say how high, but I would guess over 250, unfortunately for Oh! Great's heart rate explanation in vol 7 there is a real medical condition like this http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/11183-1.asp and in reading what happens during this condition it would not result in the effects described in the book. So like ki powers and dragons I think we should just suspend our disbelief,and like Star wars fans with Midichlorians and the force learn it's better not to ask why and just accept Mitsuomi gets real strong for 3 minutes for "some" reason because of what Shin did.

And I don't think there's any gate either everyone has them, and they open them with ki, the ki doesn't come from them(Makiko explains this in vol 9). Mitsuomi obviously is skilled enough to use his ki to open gates but he doesn't, and while Mitsuomi has lots of ki he still has the limited amount his body can stand. His exceptional skills and power are physical and not ki related, though those physical powers allow him to manipulate his ki much better than other people. For example Nagi always had a lot of ki but couldn't manipulate it until Maya taught him how through physical training and couldn't use it to open his eigth gate for a while after that and even then it took the mental "shock" of seeing his mother in danger. Look at the bowling alley he had way more ki than mitsuomi and his gate was still closed, he just had it. Mitsuomi explains it at the beginning of vol 4 "Ki was originally born of the body and stored there for internal use only, that's why there is a limit to how much ki you can have. but there are exceptions. People with an inexhaustable supply...Whare does this ki come from?". Mitsuomi knows about dragons and gates, if he knew where the ki was from why would he wonder "where's it from?"

MrProphet · Post by **MrProphet** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:03 am

Being unable to open the 8th gate has nothing to with being able to get ki from other 7 gates. Nagi does a Forged Needle without the 8th gate just fine. Tawara and Masataka can do ki-based attacks as well.

kujoe · Post by **kujoe** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:08 am

MrProphet wrote:Well, in reality (sic!), the "gate" is just another word for chakra. Chakra "opening" techniques are just a method of opening yourself to a flow of chi (or ki, or whatever).

The weird abilities are just the way Oh!great's universe people use the ki, but in actuality, all it is, is just a gate for ki.

So, Mitsuomi doesn't really have to bust out any weird techniques if he has a ki-gate. Everyone has it with enough training. Mitsuomi just got a crash course in it by getting blasted by Shin.

I'm starting to get confused here... Does Mitsuomi even use a gate in the same manner as Ishiyumi had before? Or something like Fuu's or Ryuuzaki's?

While the gates are simply Oh! Great's version of chakra, he also gives it a little extra "magical" aspect to it. Ishiyumi could use water bullets, Fuu can use lightning, Ryuuzaki literally uses fire. And there's the Dragon's Eye and the Dragon's Roar for example--all of which are ki-related abilities, that are at the same time, so very separate from other ki-related usuals such as the Forged Needle, which in actuality, is just one hell of a punch with ten times the fighting manga flair.

I'm not sure if Mitsuomi has a gate in the same manner that other gate users have. I don't think he even has one. The nature of the chakra after all, is just another way of opening oneself to the flow of ki--just another--and with that said, I believe that not every character uses a gate. Moreover, Mitsuomi does in fact use different techniques.

kk1 wrote:Mitsuomi explains it at the beginning of vol 4 "Ki was originally born of the body and stored there for internal use only, that's why there is a limit to how much ki you can have. but there are exceptions. People with an inexhaustable supply...Whare does this ki come from?". Mitsuomi knows about dragons and gates, if he knew where the ki was from why would he wonder "where's it from?"

I think that's our first foreshadowing introduction to the Dragon's Fist--like Inue(?) said, "unlimited ki" and what not. Not to mention, all what Makiko had said about the flow of ki in the world and how they're all one and connected.

MrProphet · Post by **MrProphet** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:17 am

Everyone is attuned to one gate or the other. Maya's is Blue Belt Wood, Aya's - Orange Belt Water, and so on. It's just that some of the powers manifested through the gate are flashier that others...

But mainly it's just a power coming out of the gate that can be used to "do stuff". How the "stuff" is done is up to the users.

Like, Nagi has a Red Belt Earth dragon (just as Fu Chi'en) in addition to his 8th gate, but he doesn't shoot lightings. He probably can, if he tries... but it's not his way of fighting.

kujoe · Post by **kujoe** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:53 am

MrProphet wrote:Everyone is attuned to one gate or the other. Maya's is Blue Belt Wood, Aya's - Orange Belt Water, and so on. It's just that some of the powers manifested through the gate are flashier that others...

But mainly it's just a power coming out of the gate that can be used to "do stuff". How the "stuff" is done is up to the users.

Interesting... While that is true, it all depends when one gets to actually open them. When did Aya use her Orange Belt Water Gate? It's the same one as Ishiyumi's right?

And I'm not so sure about Maya's. The use of a branch, or anything similar in terms of style (wooden swords, sticks and what not), is a very common motif in martial art stories. Are you implying that there's a gate involved in that? I mean, even Masataka blocks Nagi's punch with a chopstick.

MrProphet wrote:Like, Nagi has a Red Belt Earth dragon (just as Fu Chi'en) in addition to his 8th gate, but he doesn't shoot lightings. He probably can, if he tries... but it's not his way of fighting.

Actually, he can use lightning and he did use it once--against Ishiyumi.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:25 pm

MrProphet wrote:Being unable to open the 8th gate has nothing to with being able to get ki from other 7 gates. Nagi does a Forged Needle without the 8th gate just fine. Tawara and Masataka can do ki-based attacks as well.

You don't get it from the gates, everyone has ki and everyone has gates, but you don't get ki from gates. Tawara has never used a ki-based attack.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:32 pm

kujoe wrote:
MrProphet wrote:Everyone is attuned to one gate or the other. Maya's is Blue Belt Wood, Aya's - Orange Belt Water, and so on. It's just that some of the powers manifested through the gate are flashier that others...

But mainly it's just a power coming out of the gate that can be used to "do stuff". How the "stuff" is done is up to the users.
Interesting... While that is true, it all depends when one gets to actually open them. When did Aya use her Orange Belt Water Gate? It's the same one as Ishiyumi's right?

And I'm not so sure about Maya's. The use of a branch, or anything similar in terms of style (wooden swords, sticks and what not), is a very common motif in martial art stories. Are you implying that there's a gate involved in that? I mean, even Masataka blocks Nagi's punch with a chopstick.

In her fight with Ryuzaki(himself also a dragon/gate user) and training while visiting Makiko she unleashes alot of power while just holding a twig and explains her power is "wood" based.
Aya makes it rain while holding Reiki, Makiko mentions the rain is caused by someone using a power.
I have a big long post (that Mr Prophet seems to have misunderstood) explaining the use of ki and dragon gates. I'll look for it if you want.
edit:here it isRead through this thread http://mangatranslation.com/cgi-bin/php ... .php?t=783

kujoe · Post by **kujoe** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:25 pm

kk1 wrote:You don't get it from the gates, everyone has ki and everyone has gates, but you don't get ki from gates. Tawara has never used a ki-based attack.

I believe Makiko explains this perfectly. In the Nagi vs. Ishiyumi fight, she describes how powers are born. To put it simply (as if Makiko's explanation wasn't simple enough..) when enough ki is gathered and when certain conditions are met, a person's gate is opened--and depending on the gate, a new power is born. Fire, water, etc. Coming from that, yes--ki doesn't come from the gates. Moreover, gates are actually another way of harnessing it or improving a person's skill in using it.

Which also leads me to believe, that even though the first 7 gates are available to everyone, only one can be opened--one gate which the user is associated with. I think... I mean, it wouldn't make sense why Ishiyumi would be pissed that his Water Dragon got stolen if he could simply open another. Then again, Ishiyumi always viewed his Dragon intimately and with pride.

If Kagiroi and Nagi are special because they can open multiple gates, then I suppose this is true. Well, red feathers could possibly have two under this scenario. But Mitsuomi, (I'm positive that his is just a physical condition..) Maya and Aya having opened non-8th gates? Aya maybe, but I'm not so sure about Maya... I guess I have to reread some chapters.

MrProphet · Post by **MrProphet** » Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:00 pm

Besides the fight with Ryuuzaki, if you reread chapter 77, you'll see that Maya splits a boulder with a twig. Here's what she says:

"My ki is wood. The blade of tree that can divide even a stone. A small branch like this would already make my arm shake, but there is still hope for victory.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:24 am

kujoe wrote:
If Kagiroi and Nagi are special because they can open multiple gates, then I suppose this is true. Well, red feathers could possibly have two under this scenario. But Mitsuomi, (I'm positive that his is just a physical condition..) Maya and Aya having opened non-8th gates? Aya maybe, but I'm not so sure about Maya... I guess I have to reread some chapters.

Maya I'm more sure about, Aya is pure conjecture on my part, discussing this has got me wondering about whcih Dragon "ate" Makiko's eye. One of the regular 7 dragons or her 8th dragon. I once proposed because she lost her arm she couldn't use her Dragon Fist as well, which led her to lose her eye but I'm not sure about that.

kujoe · Post by **kujoe** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:37 am

From what I can tell, only the 8th gates of the main red feather clans require some price. So for Makiko, I'm quite sure it's due to the Dragon Fist that she lost her eye. It took her other arm after all--either because she couldn't handle the burden of canceling Nagi's berserk mode, or her body was already too weak in the first place--whereas Nagi almost lost his leg.

MrProphet wrote:Besides the fight with Ryuuzaki, if you reread chapter 77, you'll see that Maya splits a boulder with a twig.

Thanks for pointing out the reference.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:19 am

kujoe wrote:From what I can tell, only the 8th gates of the main red feather clans require some price. So for Makiko, I'm quite sure it's due to the Dragon Fist that she lost her eye. It took her other arm after all--either because she couldn't handle the burden of canceling Nagi's berserk mode, or her body was already too weak in the first place--whereas Nagi almost lost his leg.

.

No reread the fight with Ishiyumi in chapter 9, Nagi opens the red dragon earth gate, and then it's explained that the power of the red dragon is Earth which is the leg so it's the red earth dragon that is eating his leg not the black 8th gate dragon. And his hair was black and he used the the dragon fist...I don't get it, it almost seems from what's written there Ishiyumi was using his dragon but didn't open the gate whereas Nagi did(he even says "with his dragon gate open like that he still has control of his conscious). And it says it's the Nagi blood that opened the gate.
Man I thought I really had a handle on this

TW_J · Post by **TW_J** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:38 am

ok im confused up until now it has really gotten to me and here is my VERY STUPID QUESTION

does mitsoumi and masataka have any unusual powers like souichirou,aya, and shin or even ishyumi?
mitsoumi has his super human strength and speed for his 3 min but thats all i can analyze and masataka is just a plain fighter well incredibly strong plain fighter but ya you know what i mean

kujoe · Post by **kujoe** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:34 am

kk1 wrote:No reread the fight with Ishiyumi in chapter 9, Nagi opens the red dragon earth gate, and then it's explained that the power of the red dragon is Earth which is the leg so it's the red earth dragon that is eating his leg not the black 8th gate dragon. And his hair was black and he used the the dragon fist...I don't get it, it almost seems from what's written there Ishiyumi was using his dragon but didn't open the gate whereas Nagi did(he even says "with his dragon gate open like that he still has control of his conscious). And it says it's the Nagi blood that opened the gate.
Man I thought I really had a handle on this

I'm not sure if I understand it 100% either, but...

Through the Dragon's Fist (which he opened for the 1st time when he met those geezers..) Nagi transformed, but he also was able to open the Earth Gate for the first time during that fight. Similarly, he used both his Dragon's Fist and the Water Gate (thanks to Ishiyumi..) against Mataza. If the Earth Gate had any consequence, then Fuu would've suffered from it also--and if all of the 7th gates had a price to pay, then all the gates are in a way "cursed." If that were so, even Ryuuzaki might have been hunted by Mitsuomi's group a long time ago under the pretext that it's "dangerous."

It seems to me that the Dragon's Fist is always "active" whenever Nagi enters his Exorcist phase, such that even Ishiyumi is shocked to discover that his Dragon has been stolen all of a sudden. Hell, I was even surprised to find out that Shizuru can't use her gate all of a sudden, considering that Nagi only punched her.

It's quite confusing, but you'd have to remember that he can open multiple gates--due to his blood, his heritage. Plus, I'm sure there has been enough info about the Dragon's Fist to confirm that the Nagi Clan's gate is one hell of a selfish and hungry dragon. Besides, what other gate could Makiko have used against Nagi that would have the same effect?

TW_J wrote:does mitsoumi and masataka have any unusual powers like souichirou,aya, and shin or even ishyumi?
mitsoumi has his super human strength and speed for his 3 min but thats all i can analyze and masataka is just a plain fighter well incredibly strong plain fighter but ya you know what i mean

Basically--characters such as Nagi, Shin and Aya should be obvious by now. Elemental gate users are characters such as Ryuuzaki and Fuu, while Ishiyumi used to have his Water Dragon. Purely physical powehouses are Bunshichi, Saga Mask and Bob. As for the rest such as Mitsuomi, Masataka, Isuzu, Madoka, etc.--they're all under the white feather class. The big question marks for me are Maya, and to a certain extent Aya--but thanks to the people around here, this discussion has shed some more light for me.

EliteF22 · Post by **EliteF22** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:43 am

I understand it to be that Mits and Masa can use ki based attacks and blocks, but they don't have access to a dragon's gate. The dragon gates just seem to give their users a special attack and gear the users ki toward one of the elements. This leads into why Souichirou is so special, he can use multiple gates, quite possibly at the same time. During his fight with Ishiyumi he had both the red dragon gate and his Nagi 8th gate open. There's also the chance that the 8th gates draw power from one of the lower 7 gates so you can't really say that he had two gates open, but during his fight with Mataza Souichirou also had the Orange belt water gate open when he used the water bullets. So I believe that he can have multiple gates open at the same time.

MrProphet · Post by **MrProphet** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:53 am

Masataka can use his Mental Universe thing (or whatever it is called).

It's certainly much more powerful than the regular Forged Needle of the Takayanagi clan.

BTW, Forged Needle is not just "a strong punch". It's basically an ability to punch something at a physical distance without actually touching it.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:21 am

TW_J wrote:ok im confused up until now it has really gotten to me and here is my VERY STUPID QUESTION

does mitsoumi and masataka have any unusual powers like souichirou,aya, and shin or even ishyumi?
mitsoumi has his super human strength and speed for his 3 min but thats all i can analyze and masataka is just a plain fighter well incredibly strong plain fighter but ya you know what i mean

They can use ki based attacks, the only other characters who we have seen use them is their dad, Dougen, Shin and Nagi, so it's a pretty rare ability that only the most powerful fighters can use.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:25 am

EliteF22 wrote: There's also the chance that the 8th gates draw power from one of the lower 7 gates so you can't really say that he had two gates open, but during his fight with Mataza Souichirou also had the Orange belt water gate open when he used the water bullets. So I believe that he can have multiple gates open at the same time.

No his mother told him the black dragon gets it's energy from everything in the world and his body is only a conduit for that energy, there is no energy IN any of the gates.

kujoe · Post by **kujoe** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:36 am

The "Mental Universe" is Masataka's preferred fighting style out of all the styles he knows. It's not a single major move or anything like that.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:39 am

kujoe wrote:
kk1 wrote:No reread the fight with Ishiyumi in chapter 9, Nagi opens the red dragon earth gate, and then it's explained that the power of the red dragon is Earth which is the leg so it's the red earth dragon that is eating his leg not the black 8th gate dragon. And his hair was black and he used the the dragon fist...I don't get it, it almost seems from what's written there Ishiyumi was using his dragon but didn't open the gate whereas Nagi did(he even says "with his dragon gate open like that he still has control of his conscious). And it says it's the Nagi blood that opened the gate.
Man I thought I really had a handle on this
I'm not sure if I understand it 100% either, but...

Through the Dragon's Fist (which he opened for the 1st time when he met those geezers..) Nagi transformed, but he also was able to open the Earth Gate for the first time during that fight. Similarly, he used both his Dragon's Fist and the Water Gate (thanks to Ishiyumi..) against Mataza. If the Earth Gate had any consequence, then Fuu would've suffered from it also--and if all of the 7th gates had a price to pay, then all the gates are in a way "cursed." If that were so, even Ryuuzaki might have been hunted by Mitsuomi's group a long time ago under the pretext that it's "dangerous."

It seems to me that the Dragon's Fist is always "active" whenever Nagi enters his Exorcist phase, such that even Ishiyumi is shocked to discover that his Dragon has been stolen all of a sudden. Hell, I was even surprised to find out that Shizuru can't use her gate all of a sudden, considering that Nagi only punched her.

It's quite confusing, but you'd have to remember that he can open multiple gates--due to his blood, his heritage. Plus, I'm sure there has been enough info about the Dragon's Fist to confirm that the Nagi Clan's gate is one hell of a selfish and hungry dragon. Besides, what other gate could Makiko have used against Nagi that would have the same effect?
.

Fuu wouldn't have necessarliy been attacked by the dragon like Nagi if he didn't open the gate, like Ishiyumi. See Oh! Great's terminology is what's confusing me, half the time they're "gates" you open and half the time they're "dragons" you feed. Well they say Makiko didn't use it because the energy wasn't "eaten", besides how does a Dragon Fist eat a Dragon Fist? Makiko's eye is what bother's me, she obviously opens a different gate than the red dragon gate but which one? Earth = leg, what does eye = ? Maybe only the Nagi's get eaten by their dragons because only they can feed them enough energy to make them powerful enough to actually turn on them? I really hope there's a better explanation soon.

kujoe · Post by **kujoe** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:04 am

kk1 wrote:Fuu wouldn't have necessarliy been attacked by the dragon like Nagi if he didn't open the gate, like Ishiyumi.

Uhm... Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here... Ishiyumi and Fuu don't have access to the 8th Gate of the Nagi Clan anyway, so they're safe as far as that's concerned. The Water Gate and the Earth Gate are quite user-friendly compared to the Dragon's Fist.

kk1 wrote:See Oh! Great's terminology is what's confusing me, half the time they're "gates" you open and half the time they're "dragons" you feed.

Just think of both terms as almost one and the same thing--though when "Dragon" is used, it attains a personified effect. Like, "the Dragon ate my arm..." or "we draw our power from the Dragon..etc." The term "gate" is closer to the original term chakra--such as, "he opened the Red Dragon Gate...etc."

kk1 wrote:Well they say Makiko didn't use it because the energy wasn't "eaten", besides how does a Dragon Fist eat a Dragon Fist? Makiko's eye is what bother's me, she obviously opens a different gate than the red dragon gate but which one? Earth = leg, what does eye = ?

I read it as simply her canceling out Souichirou's gate through hers. Or using Souichirou's Dragon and canceling it herself...? I'm not sure either, but I'm sure that them being both linked with the same blood and the same ability has something to do with it. No way in hell would a gate like Fuu's (Earth..?) cancel out Nagi's Dragon's Fist. It seems to also match what Makiko had said in vol.9--how everything are merely parts of one another, and how each thing is always part of something larger than itself...or something like that.

The Nagi Clan's Dragon just decides to eat whatever "it wants" if the user can't handle it. I assume since it's the leg that was primarily used in the Ishiyumi fight, (due to the Earth Gate..) most of the strain came from there. In the Mataza fight, Makiko(?) sort of predicted that Souichirou might have his entire body eaten if he continued with his rampage.

It's very possible that she herself used a variety of gates in the past. In fact, I think she did. But as far as the Mataza incident is concerned, and with no other clues to go with, I'd say that it was all Dragon Fist related in some way.

kk1 wrote:Maybe only the Nagi's get eaten by their dragons because only they can feed them enough energy to make them powerful enough to actually turn on them? I really hope there's a better explanation soon.

That's the payoff they have to live with. The Nagi Clan's 8th Gate--a.k.a. the Dragon's Fist--is indeed a malevolent gate inasmuch it has its benefits. It feeds on the body in return for the power one wields. It's the same with the Dragon's Eye, wherein Shin couldn't handle everything it showed him to the point he went into lapses of insanity.

Only the main 6 Red Feather 8th gates(?) demand some sort of price. Even the Dragon's Palm--though this one seems to be the safest of all.

kujoe · Post by **kujoe** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:25 am

kk1 wrote:It just looks like that's exactly why Maya wanted Nagi in the first place just to beat Mitsuomi after those 3 unbeatable minutes. And after rereading the whole bowling alley fight it seems that's exactly why Mitsuomi tried to take him out so early, he knew he'd lose.
I guess Maya just really wants to stop Mitsuomi, not save his life. Ah well it was a romantic thought.

I just realized that I may have been slightly misunderstood here. Sorry about that.

I meant, that if Shin opened a gate that was causing Mitsuomi's body to go past his limits, then there is no need for Maya to wait for the Tournament just so Nagi can steal it away from him. What can she possibly teach Nagi (with regard to Dragon's Fist) that the old geezers, Makiko and Souhaku still haven't taught or shown, that would help him use it against Mitsuomi in such a way? We still don't know how she intends to save Mitsuomi through Nagi, but this scenario just doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, I'll try to shut up now--since I feel as if I've been posting too much already.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:14 pm

Reread the Mataza fight both he and Aya say they are going to open their 8th gate, Dragon claw and Dragon eye, yet Nagi again opens the red dragon earth gate?!?!?!? Why? Why doesn't he open his 8th gate too? I mean it's obvious he uses the Dragon fist but why does he open the red dragon gate first?

EliteF22 · Post by **EliteF22** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:59 pm

Maybe, it was because he didn't think he'd need to. I understand it to be that his hands turn black when he opens his 8th gate. He didn't open that gate until after Mataza revealed his 8th gate. Maybe, he felt he needed more power to defeat Mataza. It was also not until after Mataza showed his 8th gate that Souichirou revealed he had Ishiyumi's water dragon.

Chello · Post by **Chello** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:51 pm

Here is my theory -

Oh Great! is making all of this martial arts/gates/ki stuff up as he goes along. The rules aren't written in stone about anything, especially when it comes to the main character. In any manga, the main character are always the exception to the rules.

But the main thing is Oh Great is making this up as he goes. He wants a high school fighting manga with hot chicks and ripped guys.

I still love it, but I'm not going to try to rack my brain to understand it. I might go back and reread all the explanations about Dragon Gates and that for fun though.

FYI - You guys do have some good theories that were interesting to read. Ever thought about making a TGTJ info site explaining the Red feathers, white feathers, techniques, Dragons, Gates, etc..cause you have some good ideas.

Oh and who is Kagiroi? Is he the mohawk dude?

Sorry I have only been reading Fugu's text trans, not scanslations. For some reason the information stays in my brain better with scanslations.

HappyStealer · Post by **HappyStealer** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:30 pm

yes kagiroi is the mohawk guy. Tetsuhito is first name...

Yea I was thinking the same thing. He just opens his other dragon gates when he deems it necessary. Like elite said, when mataza revealed the dragon's claw, he felt it neccessary to reveal the water dragon gate and use the water bullets, tho personally the dragon fist ended up eating the dragon's claw anyways.... I think when he goes into demon exorcist mode, it automatically activates his dragon fist. But the weirdest thing I noticed was that he wasn't even in demon exorcist mode when he punched Shizuru and he stole her dragon. I think when he wants to, he can use the dragon fist anytime he wants but when he transforms, its on all the time..... As for the makiko thingy, I thought she just used her powers to cancel out nagi's powers but because it was too much for her to handle, her arm blew off. I remember it said that if the person is stronger than urself, it will consume you. I thought that when nagi was goign berserk, when makiko blocked, it had a reaction and blew her hand to bits.... when two strong forces collide its gonna cause a huge explosion, if one didn't "lose" or back down than the energy from both are gonna explode into something bigger than the first collision.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:42 am

HappyStealer wrote:yes kagiroi is the mohawk guy. Tetsuhito is first name...
.

I like to call him the David Beckham guy since that's who he's based on.

HappyStealer wrote:
Yea I was thinking the same thing. He just opens his other dragon gates when he deems it necessary. Like elite said, when mataza revealed the dragon's claw, he felt it neccessary to reveal the water dragon gate and use the water bullets, tho personally the dragon fist ended up eating the dragon's claw anyways.... I think when he goes into demon exorcist mode, it automatically activates his dragon fist. But the weirdest thing I noticed was that he wasn't even in demon exorcist mode when he punched Shizuru and he stole her dragon.
.

Ooh good point I didn't notice that, but that's not "demon exorcist mode", the black hair is from when he opens his red dragon gate. It seems the Nagi's only turn black when they open a different gate (since Makiko used it but nothing turned black on her) and everyopne else only when they open an 8th gate.

HappyStealer wrote: I think when he wants to, he can use the dragon fist anytime he wants but when he transforms, its on all the time..... As for the makiko thingy, I thought she just used her powers to cancel out nagi's powers but because it was too much for her to handle, her arm blew off. I remember it said that if the person is stronger than urself, it will consume you. I thought that when nagi was goign berserk, when makiko blocked, it had a reaction and blew her hand to bits.... when two strong forces collide its gonna cause a huge explosion, if one didn't "lose" or back down than the energy from both are gonna explode into something bigger than the first collision.

No, it comsumes you if you yourself aren't strong enough to resist it. Makiko absorbed all the dragon ki Nagi had, out of him, and into her. There was no "cancellation", she knew Nagi couldn't control the dragon he unleashed and if she didn't absorb it he would die, it was her or him she chose to sacrifice herself and expected to die (and would've if they didn't have access to that helicopter to get get her to the hospital that quickly). Maya remarks on this in vol 11 "I've never seen anyone absorb so much dragon energy into themself before", and then remembers Mits absorbing all that energy from Shin.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:48 am

Chello wrote:Here is my theory -

Oh Great! is making all of this martial arts/gates/ki stuff up as he goes along. The rules aren't written in stone about anything, especially when it comes to the main character. In any manga, the main character are always the exception to the rules.

But the main thing is Oh Great is making this up as he goes. He wants a high school fighting manga with hot chicks and ripped guys.

I still love it, but I'm not going to try to rack my brain to understand it. I might go back and reread all the explanations about Dragon Gates and that for fun though.

FYI - You guys do have some good theories that were interesting to read. Ever thought about making a TGTJ info site explaining the Red feathers, white feathers, techniques, Dragons, Gates, etc..cause you have some good ideas.
.

I thought he was making it up as he went along too, but stuff mentioned in early chapters ties in to well with stuff revealed later for him not to have planned much of this ahead of time. Though until more is revealed I'm not going to rack my brain anymore either, I just expect to go "OHH that's why that was that" when Oh! Great reveals more stuff.
If some one else wants to make a site they can use any theory I posted here if they want.

HappyStealer · Post by **HappyStealer** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:05 am

kk1 wrote:No, it comsumes you if you yourself aren't strong enough to resist it. Makiko absorbed all the dragon ki Nagi had, out of him, and into her. There was no "cancellation", she knew Nagi couldn't control the dragon he unleashed and if she didn't absorb it he would die, it was her or him she chose to sacrifice herself and expected to die (and would've if they didn't have access to that helicopter to get get her to the hospital that quickly). Maya remarks on this in vol 11 "I've never seen anyone absorb so much dragon energy into themself before", and then remembers Mits absorbing all that energy from Shin.

Hehe, interesting. Makiko is hotter now that I know that. She's got that motherly appeal I guess.....

I didn't know his hair turned black when he opened the red dragon gate. I always thought the transformation was the 8th dragon gate ability. BUt when I think aboutit, yea it was everytime he opened the red dragon was when he had black hair. I.E. when he transformed the first time and against ishiyumi. So technically, he so far has opened 3 dragon gates at once. Since you say his hair is black when red is opened(thats one), his dragon fist(thats 2), and when he opened the water dragon to use water bullets(thats 3) or does he drop one dragon gate for the other? I know he can open 2 at once thats it....but not sure if he can open more than 2 at once....

Post by **FuguTabetai** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:55 am

If someone wants to write up a HTML page out some of the "Confusing stuff" I would be happy to host it somewhere on tjtg.mangatranslation.com

Or maybe I should set up a wiki. That might be fun...

kujoe · Post by **kujoe** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:33 am

kk1 wrote:Ooh good point I didn't notice that, but that's not "demon exorcist mode", the black hair is from when he opens his red dragon gate. It seems the Nagi's only turn black when they open a different gate (since Makiko used it but nothing turned black on her) and everyopne else only when they open an 8th gate.

Actually, I'm quite sure the transformation is part of his Demon Exorcist phase. He transformed into that the first time when the old geezers forced him to gaze at Makiko's ruined eye. (w/c was before the Ishiyumi fight. Check the end of vol. 8...) On the other hand, the Red Dragon Gate was opened for the first time during the Ishiyumi fight--which happens waaay after the former. Moreover, Fu had a Red Dragon Gate too (Earth..?) and he did use it more than Nagi ever has so far, but we never see him change form.

It seems to me that the Dragon's Fist is always in the background no matter what gate Nagi seems to be using. Just like I said before, it seems to be always active in some way. The Dragon's Fist doesn't seem to be "turned off" even when Nagi uses whatever alternative gate he has at his disposal. In fact, he was in his Exorcist form when he used both the Earth Dragon and Water Dragon gates.

Another (tiny) piece of info that may be worth pondering about is vol.8.196-197... specifically what Makiko says about how the Dragon passes through all the 8 gates during the transformation scene. Then again, perhaps I'm reading into things too much.

kk1 wrote:Makiko absorbed all the dragon ki Nagi had, out of him, and into her. There was no "cancellation", she knew Nagi couldn't control the dragon he unleashed and if she didn't absorb it he would die, it was her or him she chose to sacrifice herself and expected to die (and would've if they didn't have access to that helicopter to get get her to the hospital that quickly). Maya remarks on this in vol 11 "I've never seen anyone absorb so much dragon energy into themself before", and then remembers Mits absorbing all that energy from Shin.

Good find. That certainly clears this mystery up.

Like I said, it was Dragon Fist related. The Earth Gate is merely an elemental type after all.

As for Makiko's lack of a transforming scene--well, I'm stumped on that one too. But then again, perhaps it's also possible for her not to transform or use the gate without "opening" it too widely. And I'm sure that would be wise considering the state she's in. She still hasn't been shown going all the way so far anyway. I hope Oh! Great at least gives the readers a glimpse of her when she was in her prime.

With regard to the "Confusing Stuff"--sounds like a good idea.

MrProphet · Post by **MrProphet** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:41 am

I think that a thing that confuses a lot of people is Oh!great designation and the fact that dragon, demon and gate is the same damn thing.

Post by **FuguTabetai** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:08 am

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:29 am

kujoe wrote:
kk1 wrote:Ooh good point I didn't notice that, but that's not "demon exorcist mode", the black hair is from when he opens his red dragon gate. It seems the Nagi's only turn black when they open a different gate (since Makiko used it but nothing turned black on her) and everyopne else only when they open an 8th gate.
Actually, I'm quite sure the transformation is part of his Demon Exorcist phase. He transformed into that the first time when the old geezers forced him to gaze at Makiko's ruined eye. (w/c was before the Ishiyumi fight. Check the end of vol. 8...) On the other hand, the Red Dragon Gate was opened for the first time during the Ishiyumi fight--which happens waaay after the former. Moreover, Fu had a Red Dragon Gate too (Earth..?) and he did use it more than Nagi ever has so far, but we never see him change form.

It seems to me that the Dragon's Fist is always in the background no matter what gate Nagi seems to be using. Just like I said before, it seems to be always active in some way. The Dragon's Fist doesn't seem to be "turned off" even when Nagi uses whatever alternative gate he has at his disposal. In fact, he was in his Exorcist form when he used both the Earth Dragon and Water Dragon gates.

Another (tiny) piece of info that may be worth pondering about is vol.8.196-197... specifically what Makiko says about how the Dragon passes through all the 8 gates during the transformation scene. Then again, perhaps I'm reading into things too much.

.

OK I think you are right, and it also explains why no one else has a transformation when they open a gate, they're just opening gates with internal ki, Nagi uses the inexhaustable external ki of the black dragon(and thus is opening the red dragon gate with black dragon ki).
One other thing, notice a few pages before that Makiko(and or Dougen) says 'which will we get the "flying dragon" or the "black dragon"'? And in vol 9(when explaing stuff with the ladybug and swalow) "the flying dragon races toward heaven transforms into the black dragon and shakes the earth", what's that about? At first I thought they were wondering if Nagi will have Makiko's power(black dragon) or Souhaku's(flying dragon), and that might still be the case but what is the "flying" dragon? It becomes the black dragon from her explanation but does that mean you can use it before then and that is somehow related to Souhaku's power? It will be interesting to see...

kujoe · Post by **kujoe** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:53 am

That part is rather open to interpretation. (I'm not sure what Souhaku's Dragon is or what his gate is called, either. The Ultra Jump Special has some clues, but not much.) But it's possible they were wondering what kind of gate Nagi has considering he has both the blood of the Nagi and Kago Clans within him.

Another guess is--they were just probably being figurative. Like, what are the consequences or something like that. I really don't know, but it does sound good I suppose.

EliteF22 · Post by **EliteF22** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:38 pm

We had a discussion about this awhile ago. If I remember correctly the flying dragon tends to be thought of as good, while the black dragon is thought of more as evil. It would make sense that he would have to choose between fighting to help people or fighting just to beat everyone else and be the strongest. Just fighting to gain power would be more evil than becoming strong to help someone else. This also works into the conflict between his mother and his father. Makiko tries to help people, whereas it appears that Souhaku just pummels them submission.

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:01 pm

EliteF22 wrote:We had a discussion about this awhile ago. If I remember correctly the flying dragon tends to be thought of as good, while the black dragon is thought of more as evil. It would make sense that he would have to choose between fighting to help people or fighting just to beat everyone else and be the strongest. Just fighting to gain power would be more evil than becoming strong to help someone else. This also works into the conflict between his mother and his father. Makiko tries to help people, whereas it appears that Souhaku just pummels them submission.

Where is this at in the books? And Nagi uses the black dragon and they say when he first uses it "he's just like you Makiko" So are you saying Nagi is evil and if Makiko is good she uses the flying dragon?

HappyStealer · Post by **HappyStealer** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:23 pm

I've always been wondering about that sky dragon and black dragon thingy too. I was always clueless about it because it was never explained thoroughly. But ok, to clarify things, the "demon exorcist mode" is when his black dragon passes through his 7 gates, changing his hair color, etc. Most of us have assumed that during demon exorcist mode, his dragon fist is active all the time. He can use multiple dragon gates IE. the dragon fist, water dragon, and earth dragon all at once... When he opens up other dragon gates, he uses his black dragon to force them open.

I was thinking something, when nagi hit shizuru, he ate her dragon but he did not go into demon exorcist mode. Now going back to the makiko scene where she absorbs all of nagi's ki while he was berserk, she also did not transform. So I'm assuming that you can use the dragon fist whenever you choose to use it, but in "demon exorcist mode," the dragon fist is always active. I think that is a fair and reasonable explanation to this whole "why didn't makiko-dono transform."

kk1 · Post by **kk1** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:19 pm

HappyStealer wrote:
I was thinking something, when nagi hit shizuru, he ate her dragon but he did not go into demon exorcist mode. Now going back to the makiko scene where she absorbs all of nagi's ki while he was berserk, she also did not transform. So I'm assuming that you can use the dragon fist whenever you choose to use it, but in "demon exorcist mode," the dragon fist is always active. I think that is a fair and reasonable explanation to this whole "why didn't makiko-dono transform."

He just doesn't need dragon ki to open his dragon fist, like Maya, Shin, Mouki, Hotaru, Mataza, etc. he(and Makiko) just use internal ki to open the Dragon Fist, he only uses the black dragon energy to open gates when he wants to kick ass.

Of course now this raises the question, couldn't Nagi already use the water dragon before he stole Ishiyumi's? Since it's just one of the 7 dragons everyone has, why doesn't he just open that gate? I believe we we're discussing this earlier in the thread(or chapter 80's?) you have to think of them as dragons and Nagi's dragon ate Ishiyumi's(and thus explains why Ishiyumi can't use it anymore) but how does that give Nagi his skill in using it? Can he not use one's he's not naturally attuned to unless he eats it first? What about powers he already uses? If he ate someone else's red earth dragon what happens? Does his power double up?

Ah well I just hope we get to see him use some of the others soon.

Asunder · Post by **Asunder** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:32 pm

I think swallowing the other Dragon powers just allows Nagi to sense how to open up his own Red Gates through his Black Dragon. Maybe the Red Dragon gates require a certain energy signature to be detected and what Souichirou is stealing is the energy signature of the person.

I keep lamenting the fact that Souichirou gets uglier and uglier every time he goes Super Nagi. What happened to the bishounen Nagi?

MrProphet · Post by **MrProphet** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:34 pm

I am really lost to this discussion.

Honestly, people, is the fact that Nagi opens his gates consequently, simultaneously or however the hell he want to really tied to some other special point you guys are trying to make? Does it really mean anything in the big picture or are you just debating this for the sake of figuring out every minute point Oh! great conjured up?

It's fine either way, but as an onlooker I'd like to know if this is leading somewhere interesting, or should I just skip it and not bother?

PS Bishounen Nagi? I think I'll be having as nightmare tonight.

EliteF22 · Post by **EliteF22** » Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:54 pm

The whole sky dragon, black dragon was more of a reference to ones character. I don't think it had anything to do with the actual color of Souichirou's dragon. I think Oh! Great's changing art style is the reason for why Souichirou looks uglier during his super sayan form. I feel that Oh! Great is trying to make him look more evil. Leads me to believe that Souichirou's inner conflict is going to build up to a point where he'll have to deal with it.