Fight 83

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Post by shouki » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:54 am

FuguTabetai wrote:
shouki wrote:Here's some feedback. I hope you find it useful...

I'd need my kanji dictionary to figure out some of the words properly, but I think Dougen is basically saying something like "What are you getting up while I was away. That criminal is the one who killed his own father, Kaima, whose funeral I was attending."
My translation is up at http://fugu.cs.columbia.edu/tjtg/TJTG_14_Trans.html.
That line is "He is the criminal that ... murdered my friend, and his father, Kaima!!" Where are you guys getting this stuff about a funeral?
I was copying it... I thought it was one of the words I couldn't recognise without my kanji dict (which is at home)

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Post by underdark » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:32 am

Here's the cover from s-manga, bigger, for your best pleasure...
really madoka is great in this cover. I love sword themes... :D

Image

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Post by kk1 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:52 am

FuguTabetai wrote:
shouki wrote:Here's some feedback. I hope you find it useful...

I'd need my kanji dictionary to figure out some of the words properly, but I think Dougen is basically saying something like "What are you getting up while I was away. That criminal is the one who killed his own father, Kaima, whose funeral I was attending."
My translation is up at http://fugu.cs.columbia.edu/tjtg/TJTG_14_Trans.html.
That line is "He is the criminal that ... murdered my friend, and his father, Kaima!!" Where are you guys getting this stuff about a funeral?
My bad translated the kana and not the kanji, that's why I don't have a web page for translations :wink:
I was rushing I said (not done) :oops:

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Post by FuguTabetai » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:54 am

kk1 wrote: My bad translated the kana and not the kanji, that's why I don't have a web page for translations :wink:
I was rushing I said (not done) :oops:
oh it's ok. I was just worried that I had missed something there. I went back, and I'm sure that my translation is ok. I was just surprised, that's all.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:54 am

underdark wrote:Here's the cover from s-manga, bigger, for your best pleasure...
really madoka is great in this cover. I love sword themes... :D
Wow, That's sweet, after this chapter I hope Makiko gets a cover she deserves something for her suffering.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:18 am

shouki wrote: ideologies.

It seems that eye is being kept for some future purpose involving the Dragon Eye. ".
The eye thing was a surprise.
Geez How does this fit with Makiko saying a "dragon" took her eye when explaining the dragon gates? And that big dragon shaped scar on her face?

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Post by kujoe » Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:24 am

Yeah, I was wondering about that too, back when I commented on it earlier.

Come to think of it, an eye that was pulled out wouldn't have that kind of a scar right? But then it wouldn't make sense either with regard to what she said--or did she even say that the Dragon took it?

I also wish that the cover was Makiko instead of Madoka, but maybe the next one would be a better time to do that considering what's been going on.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:01 am

pv82 wrote:
MrProphet wrote:
pv82 wrote: Thats how its looks like to me, he seems to have aimed for her. Mits was stading in front of Maya in the panel before, but so was Nagi. Maybe he ment to aim for her. It does seem wierd that you dont see Mits in the strike panels. I cant see the self sacrfice part, unless MP has translated a part indicating that.
On the first panel we see Nagi walking to the side and Maya walking right behind Mitsuomi's shoulder. On the next double-panel we see Kagiroi striking past Nagi and Maya receiving the blow. Obviously it was meant for Mitsuomi. Of the 3 of them, Mitsuomi is the most dangerous. It just makes no sense to deliver a blow to Maya who is the least dangerous.
Yeah, I agree that Mits and Nagi were walking in front of Maya, and its wierd that you don't even see Mits in the panel where Tetsuhito strikes her, but he could have zoom in between both of them to strike her. Also, since its doesn't show that Nagi changed position, so if she was protecting Mits, then how did she end up behind Nagi, Was the strike that hard to blow back that far, and wheres Mits? Yet, The fact that Mistoumi is the strongest of the 3 as the reason why Tetsuhito would strike him doesn't really convince me. Tetsuhito may have meant to strike Maya for a alterior motive, maybe to get a rise out of Nagi or Mits. Seems like Oh great likes to use hidden meanings behind what happens, but Ive been very wrong before, so who knows. :roll:
He attacked Maya, Nagi's still looking forward because he flew right past him and Mits to hit Maya. On page 32 he says "Start with the person without the highest combat ability. It's an important point of war". Tetsuhito considers Maya the weakest of the 3 so tried to take her out first.

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Post by Faust Am » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:16 am

Interesting.... so Tetsuhito consider Maya the weakest???

So... what did Maya says in return???

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:00 pm

Went to Kinokuniya to get volume 13 today. It's nice. As always, much better quality than the UJ "newspaper" sheets. I am hoping that someone is going to do this volume off of tankoubon scans, but... eh... probably not gonna happen. 8)

The color inserts are: 1) Maya&Aya from the remix cover (the same thing that's on the boxset of the anime), 2) One of the posters from the calendar with Maya and Aya in bikinis playing with water. The chibi figure on the back is another Madoka with a sword.

Also, I was actually surprised that there are extra pages in tankoubon. In Fight 81, where Ishiyumi comes around and starts to attack Nagi there is actually a whole two-panel spread of Ishiyumi getting really to attack that was not in the UJ scans. Maybe there are others, I didn't look through the books too closely, that that one was definitely new.

Anyone notice anything else new?

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Post by FuguTabetai » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:49 pm

MrProphet wrote:Went to Kinokuniya to get volume 13 today. It's nice. As always, much better quality than the UJ "newspaper" sheets. I am hoping that someone is going to do this volume off of tankoubon scans, but... eh... probably not gonna happen. 8)
If someone does nice scans, I would like to apply my translation to them. One thing I would like to add to GMAO is an easy way to move/modify bubbles for placement on different scans. If I had nice scans of TJTG 13, it would be a fun project to work from the coding end of things. It wouldn't be something that happens soon though.
MrProphet wrote: The color inserts are: 1) Maya&Aya from the remix cover (the same thing that's on the boxset of the anime), 2) One of the posters from the calendar with Maya and Aya in bikinis playing with water. The chibi figure on the back is another Madoka with a sword.
I would love a scan of the chibi figure - I have most of them in the avatar gallery here, and might like to add them to the character descriptions as well. If you scan those color inserts, please let me know as well so I can add them to my gallery (which eventually I will have re-hosted reliably. Probably in a few months when I'm actually at a real job though.)

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Post by EliteF22 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:44 pm

I guess my earlier speculation about the true warrior concept have been verified. Souhaku wants to create the true warrior through red feather abilities, whereas Dougen wants one from a normal white feather. Did the chapter say anything about how many dragon's were transferred into Tetsuhito? Was that severely malnurished looking guy at the bottom of page 22 Kabane? Since Souhaku seems to be creating some kind of future, maybe he needs the dragon's eye to see all the possibilities that will lead to his failing so that he can counter them. Hmm, a bit of foreshadowing? Souichirou( out of control version or mind controlled version ) versus Aya. Man, it was good to see that Shidzuru's face is pretty much ok. Oh! Great must like delinquent characters, making his so popular with the ladies.

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Post by Asunder » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:06 pm

Shidzuru is still pretty. Yay!

I wonder if Nagi is even capable of eating Tetsuhito. I mean, will he get all the Dragons that Tetsuhito has eaten? What about if Nagi's Dragon eats Makiko's eye?

Does he get her Dragons as well? Because that would make him pretty strong.

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Post by solidis1 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:14 pm

What if Tetsuhito actually used the dragon palm to heal Maya for some unknown reason. I know that doesn't make much sense but just what if.
Maybe he knows that she would lose all of her new skills she gained by doing so. Until we know what she says we can't be sure, right?

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Post by HappyStealer » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:30 pm

All I can say is spectacular chapter. Souhaku... still don't like him. Anyone who hurts Makiko is someone who I despise. Its gonna be interesting in the next chapters... but doesn't it seem that TenTen is starting to head towards its end? Shidzuru! I'm so gladf her face is still pretty. She's awesome :D I so wanan see Tetsuito Vs. Nagi. That battle is gonna rock. Plus I wanna see Nagi get revenge for his mom. She's been through so much.

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Post by moyism » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:20 pm

FuguTabetai wrote: I would love a scan of the chibi figure - I have most of them in the avatar gallery here, and might like to add them to the character descriptions as well. If you scan those color inserts, please let me know as well so I can add them to my gallery (which eventually I will have re-hosted reliably. Probably in a few months when I'm actually at a real job though.)
fugu, you don't have to worry about re-hosting the TT gallery or anything. I have *plenty* of bw to spread (actually, it's the only thing really "hitting" my server) ;)

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Post by kujoe » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:27 pm

HappyStealer wrote:but doesn't it seem that TenTen is starting to head towards its end?

It does seem that TenTen is at a convenient point for Oh! Great. He can easily go for the ending from here if he so wanted to, or still go on further.

I'm definitely hoping for the latter.

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Post by pv82 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:03 pm

FuguTabetai wrote:
MrProphet wrote:Went to Kinokuniya to get volume 13 today. It's nice. As always, much better quality than the UJ "newspaper" sheets. I am hoping that someone is going to do this volume off of tankoubon scans, but... eh... probably not gonna happen. 8)
If someone does nice scans, I would like to apply my translation to them. One thing I would like to add to GMAO is an easy way to move/modify bubbles for placement on different scans. If I had nice scans of TJTG 13, it would be a fun project to work from the coding end of things. It wouldn't be something that happens soon though.
MrProphet wrote: The color inserts are: 1) Maya&Aya from the remix cover (the same thing that's on the boxset of the anime), 2) One of the posters from the calendar with Maya and Aya in bikinis playing with water. The chibi figure on the back is another Madoka with a sword.
I would love a scan of the chibi figure - I have most of them in the avatar gallery here, and might like to add them to the character descriptions as well. If you scan those color inserts, please let me know as well so I can add them to my gallery (which eventually I will have re-hosted reliably. Probably in a few months when I'm actually at a real job though.)
I can do the tank also, but I wont get the manga till 2 weeks, I don't mind tearing this one apart. Unless someone beats me to it

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Post by solidis1 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:14 pm

I'm curious as to what method Oh great colors his pictures with. The Madoka from 13 and Aya from 12 look a little like colored pencil when zoomed in.

I for one hope he wraps things up soon with the story because the time seems right.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:30 pm

solidis1 wrote:What if Tetsuhito actually used the dragon palm to heal Maya for some unknown reason. I know that doesn't make much sense but just what if.
Maybe he knows that she would lose all of her new skills she gained by doing so. Until we know what she says we can't be sure, right?
He didn't heal her. She says something about catching her.

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Post by ZoddGuts » Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:17 am

I wonder since Makiko was married with Souhaku it means that she had his last name same with Souichirou is she still married with Souhaku or got a divorce. Or maybe she just changed her last name including her sons last name to hers. lol I know weird questions. Since the time when in this chapter is around Souichirou being 7 to 8 years old means that Souhaku had to been together or at least seen Souichirou it be hard to believe that Makiko is so in love with Souhaku eventhough he wasn't at all involve with his son.

Nice to see that Shidzuru face isn't as messed up as I thought it would have been. She still looks good. :o Anyways good chapter.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:18 am

page 26

Souhaku: "The "eye",originally it's function is to store information for the short term."
"The dragon energy Makiko ate is stuffed in the present eyeball."
"Once in the old days of sorcerers, in a secret ceremony of transmission one's eye was used to make use of this quality."
"I will improve this by that needle technique and the "ki" gathered from the dragon in Makiko's body."
"in Makiko from the meat she began eating 6 months...by this time she has no gates not even this eye"
Originally ...it was the entrence of "the Dragon's eye". This "eye" only...

man I really want to know what's going on here and my translation sucks :cry:

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Post by kujoe » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:26 am

ZoddGuts wrote:I wonder since Makiko was married with Souhaku it means that she had his last name same with Souichirou is she still married with Souhaku or got a divorce. Or maybe she just changed her last name including her sons last name to hers. lol I know weird questions.
I think it's safe to assume that Makiko still uses her last name considering she's the current head of the Nagi Clan. Heck, I'm even wondering if she's even officially married to Souhaku.

In fact long ago, it was quite ordinary for a man to marry into the family of his spouse--especially if the wife is the eldest and the only heiress to an established family. And this a manga involving established clans dating back from who knows exactly when.

I'm just not sure how Souhaku would fit into this. A divorce is also likely, especially since the events happened in the past. But who knows?
Last edited by kujoe on Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:28 am

Could it be that Makiko was the one who murdered all the old heads of the 12 families (Dougen mentioned that)? Or, at least, stole dragons from them...

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Post by kujoe » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:34 am

I'm not sure about the murder part, since it was mentioned that Mitsuomi did some restructuring of his own. And where would be those guys who trained Nagi be if they all died? Aren't they in the same generation as Dougen? Or was Dougen referring to the clan heads before him?

Well, at least we do know that Shin killed his parents.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:49 am

MrProphet wrote:Could it be that Makiko was the one who murdered all the old heads of the 12 families (Dougen mentioned that)? Or, at least, stole dragons from them...
It was Souhaku, what he did with Makiko set off Shin's power which led to him murdering them and we've already seen the flashback of him standing over the dead bodies of Madoka's parents. plus previously Makiko said he intended to destroy the 12 families.

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:02 am

I think that is two separate incidents. In Madoka's flashback he is seen as a man on a full-blown war footing. On the other hand, Dougen implies that everything was hush-hush, since even he doesn't know if it's murder or just an accident.

You can't fake a machete chopping off stuff for an accident. Plus, Dougen only mentions the heads of the families, not entire families, like Mawaris.

So either Oh!great is screwing up his own continuity, or there were two killing sprees: one right before the incident 8 years ago, where Makiko's been "collecting dragons" for Souhaku; and the one right after, when Souhaku went on a killing spree of his own.

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Post by Faust Am » Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:31 am

if there's really a fight between Tetsuhito and Maya... who do you guys think... will win...

Hm.. :roll:

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Post by kk1 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:55 am

MrProphet wrote:I think that is two separate incidents. In Madoka's flashback he is seen as a man on a full-blown war footing. On the other hand, Dougen implies that everything was hush-hush, since even he doesn't know if it's murder or just an accident.

You can't fake a machete chopping off stuff for an accident. Plus, Dougen only mentions the heads of the families, not entire families, like Mawaris.

So either Oh!great is screwing up his own continuity, or there were two killing sprees: one right before the incident 8 years ago, where Makiko's been "collecting dragons" for Souhaku; and the one right after, when Souhaku went on a killing spree of his own.
Full-blown war footing? OK I don't know where you get that, but I wasn't saying he chopped them up, remember as we've seen Souhaku can control others(and as we now see even Inue was with him back then) so he could have gotten anyone or had them killed in a number of ways(though they are chopped up in the picture, of course so we're Shin's parents hmmm), however it happened he was responsible. Where does it say all of the Mawaris were killed(her grandfather? was there training Nagi)? Madoka just said her parents were killed and it was her(oops) that said he was dedicated to the slaughter of the 12 families.
Remember Souhaku founded "F", he went around getting rid of the parents and then taking the kids under his control.
Perhaps even Shin was meant to be part of "F".
Last edited by kk1 on Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:03 pm

Faust Am wrote:if there's really a fight between Tetsuhito and Maya... who do you guys think... will win...

Hm.. :roll:
Well we know Tetsuhito is really powerful but we've never really seen Maya go all out, I think it's going to be pretty good plus I doubt Mitsuomi and Nagi are just going to sit by and watch. Tetsuhito's the mystery, just how powerful and what kind of fighter is he? Right now I'd have to give him the edge.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:26 pm

kujoe wrote:I'm not sure about the murder part, since it was mentioned that Mitsuomi did some restructuring of his own. And where would be those guys who trained Nagi be if they all died? Aren't they in the same generation as Dougen? Or was Dougen referring to the clan heads before him?

Well, at least we do know that Shin killed his parents.
But now that we know Souhaku was there, I have to wonder how much he "influenced" that event. I've always wondered where he got reiki that day...

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Post by EliteF22 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:44 pm

What the? Where does it say he was there when Shin killed his parents? It does appear that before the rebellion of Mitsuomi that Souhaku used other people to kill the heads of founding families. On page 8 of ch. 83 Dougen says so, but he also says he suspects Souhaku is the one who was directing those killings. Hmm. Dougen also makes that comment about Souhaku starting to act weird. Random chit-chat almost seems like his mental state was degrading. Didn't Souichirou's dragon once tell him, during the fight with Ishiyumi I believe, that he would devour him and then he(the dragon) would be able to be born into the world? And then mama Nagi warned Souichirou that he must be on his guard when he fights, so he won't lose control. Maybe, something similar happened to Souhaku and his dragon is now influencing him.

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Post by Asunder » Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:49 pm

EliteF22 wrote:Didn't Souichirou's dragon once tell him, during the fight with Ishiyumi I believe, that he would devour him and then he(the dragon) would be able to be born into the world? And then mama Nagi warned Souichirou that he must be on his guard when he fights, so he won't lose control. Maybe, something similar happened to Souhaku and his dragon is now influencing him.
That's a really cool theory EliteF22. I really want to hold out the hope that Souhaku (being the coolest guy there) also happened to have good intentions.

It fits in with the idea that Souhaku is out there to unleash 1000 Demons into the world. And that also explains why Makiko still seems to love the idiot.

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Post by ZoddGuts » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:31 pm

I do believe Souhaku was a good guy but at some point took the "wrong"/"bad" path. Makiko did tell Souichirou in vol 11 ch 65 just before her arm explodes that "From now on you must be on guard when you fight, You can not... Walk the same Road that was taken by that person... Back then..."

She is obviously talking about Souhaku and is implying that he was once a good guy gone bad when he took a path/road that lead him to be what he is right now.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:38 pm

EliteF22 wrote:What the? Where does it say he was there when Shin killed his parents? .
The outfit Shin is wearing in the flashback is the outfit he was wearing the day he killed his parents, since in an earlier volume we know Dougen finds the bodies of Shin's parents, the day he brings Shin to Makiko had to be the same day. Dougen must have left soon after finding them to get to Souhaku that fast and Souhaku must have been extremely close to(if not in) the Natsume house to get Shin that quickly.

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Post by EliteF22 » Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:50 pm

Who's to say that Shin wasn't taken to the Kago estate and guarded there. Remember that Shin was about to be removed from the Natsume estate when he went nuts and killed his parents. Dougen was going to escort him to where ever they were planning to hold him. It seems to me that at the Kago estate there wasn't just an army, but some very powerful red feathers there as well. It would have been a good place to put Shin, just in case he lost control again.

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Post by MrProphet » Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:18 am

On the contrary!

Red Feather powers are augumented in the presense of other Red Feathers. It's the resonance they've been talking about. Also, Souhaku has mentioned that the building itself is resonating with the Red powers of Makiko and increasing them. So Shin would only become more powerful and crazier (without the stabilizing element of Reiki).

Moreover, Dougen took Shin out of Souhaku's possession as soon as he learned that he was there. Quite the contrary to your theory that Dougen was taking the boy to the mansion.

So, I don't think so...

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Post by EliteF22 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:14 am

Have you looked at the latest translation. In this chapter Souhaku already revealed that there are ways to repress red feather powers. That's the whole deal with Makiko in the beginning.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:25 am

Good call on Shidzuru's dragon Fugu, if I remember right you predicted it would be the "air" dragon. I figured it wasn't a red feather power, something else to add to the character profile.




here's some more of my crappy translation contribution

p 24

Makiko:"agu...a...haa...yaa...ae..."
Aya:"Wh...what...what is this?" "What in the world is happening?"
Inue:"Doing well, the "dragon" is starting the migration."
Souhaku:""The dragon pattern" too the whole migration is done. Good. Let it all through from the first to the fifteenth."
Makiko:"higiaa""So..haku..sa.." "Please make just one promise."

p 25(really having trouble with this) :cry:
Makiko: "Someday I lose the light" "Surely please change to someone's "light"."
"Just "disorder's" quantity takes over my left eye"
"Someone's heart become just a little bright "
Souhaku "I promise."


Can't wait to get to p 27 I'm hoping it has more of an explanation of just what they did with Makiko and Tetsuhito, while it explains Tesuhito's power (finally) I'm wondering just what gets transferred, just "ki", all the abilities she absorbed, the ability to absorb more abilities, what abilities did she absorb, just how is this all possible basically. I'm hoping it finally clears up all the debates we've been having lately. Did Makiko lose her "dragon fist" too? I don't think that would make sense since Souhaku could have just transeferred that and let Tetsuhito go eating "meat" instead of having Makiko do it all first. And I wonder if Souhaku was using Nagi to give Tetsuhito(or someone else) a second "dose". Hmm this chapter is raising just as many questions as it answers for me. :?

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Post by Dark_Harlequin » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:28 am

Man the story jiust gets crazier and crazier. Wasn't this originaly about the battle between Jyuukenbu and the Enforcement Group?? :shock:
Man this story changes a lot. :?

And i want to see Bunshichi in action once gain :D .*cheer* but I suppose I shouldn't hope to much for that. :(
Friends are the best thing that can happen to you ;).

Bunshichi Tawara is the best!

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Post by MrProphet » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:34 am

EliteF22 wrote:Have you looked at the latest translation. In this chapter Souhaku already revealed that there are ways to repress red feather powers. That's the whole deal with Makiko in the beginning.
Yes I did, and he does not say that.

He said that her powers are being repressed (that is, she was not reaching her full potential) and that his mansion will amplify her powers.

So, he is actually saying the exact opposite of what you imply.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:47 am

EliteF22 wrote:Who's to say that Shin wasn't taken to the Kago estate and guarded there. Remember that Shin was about to be removed from the Natsume estate when he went nuts and killed his parents. Dougen was going to escort him to where ever they were planning to hold him. It seems to me that at the Kago estate there wasn't just an army, but some very powerful red feathers there as well. It would have been a good place to put Shin, just in case he lost control again.

Judging from Makikko's reaction Souhaku just returned with him.
And it was Makiko that made his powers awaken in the first place taking him right to her would only increase his power, so that's the last place you take him if you're worried about him losing control(which he isn't anyway). Think about it, he knew Dougen was coming and he had to get to Shin before him, so he hooks up Makiko to the mansion, to amp up her power which in turn amps up Shin's power Souhaku goes to the Natsume haouse puts reiki into his cell (he was already out of control,giving him reiki would give him a moment of control over his power) his parents open the door chop chop, Souhaku takes him away.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:11 am



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Post by EliteF22 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:36 am

If he was in the Natsume house you'd think Maya would remember that. Plus, in order to get Reiki he may have had to take it from Maya. After all, she was supposed to be its scabbard. Plus, they were talking to each other right after Shin killed their parents, so if Souhaku had taken him then Maya would have been present. Oh! Great has never shown that Maya remembers seeing Souhaku that day. He could very well have taken Shin away from Dougen's men after they had arrived at the house. That would explain how Dougen knew that Souhaku had Shin.

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Post by MrProphet » Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:45 am

Maya was 10 at the moment, so I doubt that she weilded Reiki. Probably Kaima had it, or his relative (if Kaima had the Dragon Eye).

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Post by kujoe » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:05 am

kk1 wrote:Full-blown war footing? OK I don't know where you get that, but I wasn't saying he chopped them up, remember as we've seen Souhaku can control others(and as we now see even Inue was with him back then) so he could have gotten anyone or had them killed in a number of ways(though they are chopped up in the picture, of course so we're Shin's parents hmmm), however it happened he was responsible. Where does it say all of the Mawaris were killed(her grandfather? was there training Nagi)? Madoka just said her parents were killed and it was her(oops) that said he was dedicated to the slaughter of the 12 families.
Remember Souhaku founded "F", he went around getting rid of the parents and then taking the kids under his control.
I find it plausible that even something that big could be hidden from Dougen.

First of all, the point of view of that scene was from Madoka herself, so naturally it becomes emphasized.

Second, even Dougen didn't know that he was being gradually usurped by his own son, who by the way, had the backing of Souhaku and F. And the Mawari incident is also related to the formation of F.

Third, despite the Takayanagi Clan's position, and even though it seems Dougen has become suspicious of such "mysterious deaths.." he doesn't seem to be that willing to interfere with Souhaku's plans without getting the whole picture first.

I assume the Mawari incident was done "hush-hush" inasmuch as the people way upstairs were fooled into thinking it wasn't that "big."
kk1 wrote:Perhaps even Shin was meant to be part of "F".
But isn't F supposed to be composed of the children from the main White Feather clans? Then again, it could've simply ended up that way--after all the headhunting Souhaku had been doing. Shin was also taken away by Dougen (also for his own plans it seems, as Souhaku implies..) and Nagi and Aya haven't awakened yet either.

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Post by kujoe » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:13 am

MrProphet wrote:Maya was 10 at the moment, so I doubt that she weilded Reiki. Probably Kaima had it, or his relative (if Kaima had the Dragon Eye).
Still, that doesn't explain how Maya couldn't have known. Moreover, didn't she let Shin touch it at one point?

But if Souhaku was there, then the most simple scenario is also possible: he was making sure he wouldn't be seen--like he hid himself or he stayed outside, or operated from somewhere close by. Being a Red Feather himself (and if Makiko was somehow involved..) resonating wouldn't be that hard to pull off. Shin did have the Dragon's Eye after all--which also seems to be more sensitive to this resonance than most.
Last edited by kujoe on Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:13 am

EliteF22 wrote:If he was in the Natsume house you'd think Maya would remember that. Plus, in order to get Reiki he may have had to take it from Maya. After all, she was supposed to be its scabbard. Plus, they were talking to each other right after Shin killed their parents, so if Souhaku had taken him then Maya would have been present. Oh! Great has never shown that Maya remembers seeing Souhaku that day. He could very well have taken Shin away from Dougen's men after they had arrived at the house. That would explain how Dougen knew that Souhaku had Shin.
Well she never mentions Souhaku taking Shin away either, why not? who knows she could have ran screaming to her room after she realized Shin was the one who killed them and didn't see him there's lots of explanations for why Maya doesn't know or never mentions it. Souhaku can also control people and what they think I'm sure a child would be no problem for him. We still don't know his red feather power. When would he have gotten him from Dougen's men? Dougen is shown finding Kaima with his men and while that may explain how Dougen knew Souhaku had him but then wouldn't explain how Souhaku knew Dougen had him first, and wouldn't he have said at the beginning of this chapter I'm here to take him back, no, because he didn't have him yet.
I think it's obvious now that Souhaku was behind the deaths and deposing of the heads of the 12 families including the Natsumes.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:34 am

kujoe wrote:
kk1 wrote:Full-blown war footing? OK I don't know where you get that, but I wasn't saying he chopped them up, remember as we've seen Souhaku can control others(and as we now see even Inue was with him back then) so he could have gotten anyone or had them killed in a number of ways(though they are chopped up in the picture, of course so we're Shin's parents hmmm), however it happened he was responsible. Where does it say all of the Mawaris were killed(her grandfather? was there training Nagi)? Madoka just said her parents were killed and it was her(oops) that said he was dedicated to the slaughter of the 12 families.
Remember Souhaku founded "F", he went around getting rid of the parents and then taking the kids under his control.
I find it plausible that even something that big could be hidden from Dougen.

First of all, the point of view of that scene was from Madoka herself, so naturally it becomes emphasized.

Second, even Dougen didn't know that he was being gradually usurped by his own son, who by the way, had the backing of Souhaku and F. And the Mawari incident is also related to the formation of F.

Third, despite the Takayanagi Clan's position, and even though it seems Dougen has become suspicious of such "mysterious deaths.." he doesn't seem to be that willing to interfere with Souhaku's plans without getting the whole picture first.

I assume the Mawari incident was done "hush-hush" inasmuch as the people way upstairs were fooled into thinking it wasn't that "big."

.
"something that big" ? Huh? What was big? All the Mawari's weren't killed just Madoka's parents.
What becomes empasized? And it's not her POV, she's sitting next to her father's body in the picture.
Dougen wasn't "gradually" deposed it was a coup de'tat.
There was no "big" thing with the Mawaris, only Madoka's parents were killed and then Souhaku took Madoka.
Dougen obviously suspects Souhaku is behind everything he either thinks he can control him (he did just waltz in and take Shin) or didn't realize Souhaku's ultimate goal (which we still don't know either) which involved getting rid of him,which was 6 years later anyway.

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