Fight 83

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Post by MrProphet »

I personally think that "repressed" sounds more right, contextually (in the sense of what Fugu said), but one explanation for the "You are being made uncomfortable" line is that he is trying to indirectly say: "Look, I am sorry for putting you through all of this, honey, but we gotta do what we gotta do".

This sort of ties into his spiel about the mansion, as if he is saying: "Just bare with me, hon, we'll get through this soon".

I know this sounds just stupid, coming for a guy like Souhaku, but it could be one explanation.

Still, I think "Your powers are being repressed" sounds way more plausible, given what Souhaku's been doing. He must have goaded her into accepting the whole procedure "for the greater good" and under the rouse of actually helping her. Little does she know that he does not care about her, only about himself and his goal.

Just look in her eyes in that scene where he plucks her eye out. She clearly trusts him to do good by her. Little does she know...
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Post by kujoe »

kk1 wrote:"something that big" ? Huh? What was big? All the Mawari's weren't killed just Madoka's parents.
What becomes empasized? And it's not her POV, she's sitting next to her father's body in the picture.
Dougen wasn't "gradually" deposed it was a coup de'tat.
There was no "big" thing with the Mawaris, only Madoka's parents were killed and then Souhaku took Madoka.
"Big"--as in it's an incident that involved one well-known clan. To put it bluntly, Dougen just didn't wave his hand over it and thought, "Oh, people got killed from this clan which is ranked somewhere below mine... Well, doesn't matter. The parents just died."

Moreover, did I say they were all killed?

And when I say "gradually", it's under the context of "just didn't happen on one go." Mitsuomi needed help. Either he was approached, or he sought help. Perhaps that's the wrong word to use, since it implies something that slowly advances--but Mitsuomi obviously just didn't simply wake up one morning with everything in place either.

As for the POV--maybe I got this wrong, but I can only vaguely remember that it either was a flashback of sorts from Madoka or this scene was simply superimposed while she was saying something about Souhaku.
kk1 wrote:Dougen obviously suspects Souhaku is behind everything he either thinks he can control him
I agree on this one, which I've also said--and I'm sure Dougen was confident about handling Red Feathers, which probably made him careless into thinking that Souhaku was no threat or his suspicions weren't confirmed, hence he wasn't so alarmed.
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Post by kk1 »


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Post by kk1 »

kujoe wrote:
kk1 wrote:"something that big" ? Huh? What was big? All the Mawari's weren't killed just Madoka's parents.
What becomes empasized? And it's not her POV, she's sitting next to her father's body in the picture.
Dougen wasn't "gradually" deposed it was a coup de'tat.
There was no "big" thing with the Mawaris, only Madoka's parents were killed and then Souhaku took Madoka.
"Big"--as in it's an incident that involved one well-known clan. To put it bluntly, Dougen just didn't wave his hand over it and thought, "Oh, people got killed from this clan which is ranked somewhere below mine... Well, doesn't matter. The parents just died."

Moreover, did I say they were all killed?

And when I say "gradually", it's under the context of "just didn't happen on one go." Mitsuomi needed help. Either he was approached, or he sought help. Perhaps that's the wrong word to use, since it implies something that slowly advances--but Mitsuomi obviously just didn't simply wake up one morning with everything in place either.

As for the POV--maybe I got this wrong, but I can only vaguely remember that it either was a flashback of sorts from Madoka or this scene was simply superimposed while she was saying something about Souhaku.

.
You didn't say it but that's what we we're arguing in that post, so if not that I don't really know what you're trying to argue here, Souhaku's been having 12 family leaders killed, Dougen suspects him but can't implicate him because the person directly doing the killing isn't him. Nothing else to argue. It was no "bigger" an incident than Shin's parents murder.
I'd say it was rather quick, for Mitsuomi to sell a couple buildings and then pull it off before Dougen found that out and suspected anything it had to be. Maybe Souhaku had planned it out for a lot longer but Mitsuomi did it all in little more than a month after Shin died, it says so right in vol 8. I know I couldn't plan a takeover that fast :wink:

Volume 12 fight 71 page 24 for the pic.
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Post by kk1 »

Wow Makiko's eye is really confusing me, what was the point of taking it out? Tetsuhito, now just seems like an afterthought just so the power Makiko collected wouldn't be wasted. I guess we see now why he wanted Nagi, since Makiko couldn't handle all that "ki", ironic then that she had to save him when he couldn't handle all the "ki" he had.
I'm getting from the "sticking with the Takayanagi's" as that he decided not to openly oppose Dougen at that time and just wait for an opportunity using whichever of Dougen's "toy's"(which I think refers to Mits and Masataka, since at this point Dougen hadn't "made" anything out of Shin) was better, obviously an allusion to what he eventually did with Mitsuomi and why he later second guessed himself when Masataka beat Fu. Still disapointed we didn't get any insight into what Souhaku's ultimate plans are, maybe next issue :(

Oh wait I just thought of something, maybe he kept her eye so he could one day get the "dragon's eye", hmm is Souhaku still at the mansion or did he leave? Isn't Aya alone right now...dum dum dum guess we'll have to wait until next month :wink:
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Post by Asunder »

I wonder if Makiko can use the Dragon Fist without any arms.
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Post by kk1 »

Asunder wrote:I wonder if Makiko can use the Dragon Fist without any arms.
No the "gate" is on her fist, no fists no "gate".
This has been an interesting chapter on "dragon gates" so now here's my revised Dragon Gate Theory version 7.0
I think we misinterpretted the 7 normal gates things from what Shidzuru said and how Nagi and Makiko collected them. It seems they are family specific too, everyone doesn't have all 7 but everyone can be born with one of them(and only one)not all 7 only red feathers have can be born with the extra 8 th ones. Whew that sure clears up alot of the misunderstanding.
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Post by MrProphet »

So, what happened to the eye? Did it get transplanted into Kagiroi or not?

Like Souhaku is saying, the accupuncture was just to collect the ki, the power of the Gate is in the Eye. So, if Kagiroi has dragon fist, he must have Makiko's eye, right?

But why does Kago say he failed? Did he disfigure Makiko just out of spite, to punish her for being a waste? Then why did he promise her?

This was left kind of unanswered.

PS On the other note, either Makiko is a REALLY gullible woman (being in love or something), or Souhaku had some kind of a extremely brilliant plan. Nothing else can explain why Makiko was so willing to go through all this. And she was willing alright (pg. 52).
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Post by EliteF22 »

Ha, so Tetsuhito really was just a temporary solution. Needed a stronger body to hold the dragon's so they transferred them to him. Interesting how Souhaku still needs Makiko's eye. Souichirou could just eat the dragon's Tetsuhito has, unless there were drawbacks from the transfer and their not "true" dragons. Aya said there's was something strange about his ki. It wasn't normal. So the eye could be a sort of lesson plan on how to open the other gates for Souichirou. I think Souhaku's still in that mausoleum that Tetsuhito is guarding. He's clearly getting ready for something. It could be the biggest mistake attacking him. Mitsuomi appears to be drained after that last fight and Souhaku has plans for Souichirou. Smells like a trap.

Just noticed how damn fast Tetsuhito is. Not only did no one see him move to attack Maya, but he also switched the machete to his other hand so he could punch her with his right arm.
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Post by MrProphet »

Now I'm even more confused...

So, Tetsuhito doesn't have dragon fist at all? And all he has is the bunch of dragons that Makiko ate from other Red families? So, is that where he got Hotaru Dragon Palm, just "loaning" it from Makiko, not actually "eating" it himself?

The manga is getting weirder and weirder, and I am getting more and more confused. Can someone clue me in on what pretty much established right about about all of that? Am I right in my statements above?
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Post by EliteF22 »

Yeah, pretty sure that Tetsuhito doesn't have the dragon fist. I think that whole thing started because someone took the comparison between Souichirou and Tetsuhito as to meaning that they are blood related, whereas it most likely just meant they have multiple dragon gates. They transferred the dragon's Makiko ate to Tetsuhito, because as Souhaku said it was too much for her body to handle. Not sure where he got Dragon Palm. Makiko probably ate it. A union between a Hotaru and a Kagiroi just doesn't look like it ever happened.

Hmm, since at the beginning of the chapter Souhaku said the whole mansion was made to amplify Makiko's power, that could mean he was indeed repressing her so as she wouldn't be consumed by her dragon. The last chapter seemed to reveal that the mansion only amplifies the demon exorcists Nagi's powers.

I'm having a hard time understanding the translation for Maya on the last page. Does this fit for what Maya says on the last page.
"I'm being mocked again because of this..." I think underestimated works better, but since Fugu put "being made fun of" it would appear that Tetsuhito was intentionally instulting her.
"So this is hampering ( or restricting ) me... eh?" The last sentence seems to be directed at Tetsuhito, Maya seems sarcastic.
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Post by FuguTabetai »

EliteF22 wrote: I'm having a hard time understanding the translation for Maya on the last page. Does this fit for what Maya says on the last page.
"I'm being mocked again because of this..." I think underestimated works better, but since Fugu put "being made fun of" it would appear that Tetsuhito was intentionally instulting her.
"So this is hampering ( or restricting ) me... eh?" The last sentence seems to be directed at Tetsuhito, Maya seems sarcastic.
I put in comments on those two because you can translate them in a variety of ways. I think the under-estimated interpretation is pretty valid, so put it in the comment. But the most common usage of namerareru is for being mocked and/or taunted. Same thing with the tie - restricting is probably better word choice than what I have, but not as accurate. Anyway, yes, she is speaking in a somewhat mocking manner I think. We'll probably see her throw the sling off in the next chapter and bust out some whoop-ass. I hope. :)

As for the rest of the story, I'm not clear on what the deal is with the eyeball either; I thought that the eyeball could be implanted into someone to transfer all of the Dragons that had gathered in there while Makiko was being tortured. I don't think Tetsuhito has that eye now though, so I don't know if that is what happened to it. I get the feeling that Souhaku has been keeping it this whole time for his own purposes. I think the Dragons might have been transferred from Makiko to Tetsuhito in some other way, using needles, wires, whatever, but I don't know.

I do think Makiko was involved in the past in eating others' Dragons, which really shows that she has gone to some extremes, and is not the pure virtuous character she was earlier portrayed to be. I really do like the depth of the characters though, as she does have something to believe in to motivate her helping out Kago. Kago now seems even more calculating - he really did just cast her off, feigning love, when she became useless to him.

I think we'll need to get more backstory to know exactly what has happened, but there is a good idea now to give us the broad picture. Also, I'm really curious what happened to turn Makiko around to force the confrontation with her and Souhaku where she loses her arm.

Interesting chapter overall though. And man, it really is fun to have something interesting to translate.

p.s. by the time the next chapter comes out, I should be Fugu Tabetai P.h.D., or Fugu Tabetai D.h.D. (Dhhoctor of Drunkedness.)
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Post by EliteF22 »

Cool, Doctor Fugu Tabetai. Way to go for sticking it out. What are you going to do after?
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Post by FuguTabetai »

EliteF22 wrote:Cool, Doctor Fugu Tabetai. Way to go for sticking it out. What are you going to do after?
Drink.
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Post by EliteF22 »

......
Any longterm plans? If drinking is part of those plans, then I feel sorry for your liver.
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Post by FuguTabetai »

In the short term I'm moving to Dallas and looking for a job, but should be headed to Japan for interviews in August. That's about it.
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Post by kujoe »

kk1 wrote:You didn't say it but that's what we we're arguing in that post, so if not that I don't really know what you're trying to argue here,
I wasn't. If you read my post a bit differently then maybe you'd get the idea that I was somewhat supporting that Souhaku was more of scheming and carefully planning his way through as opposed to openly starting a full-blown war of sorts. I guess there was some misunderstanding here.
kk1 wrote:It was no "bigger" an incident than Shin's parents murder.
Okay, maybe "big" should've never been used (and let's quit all these "" marks already) but just like Shin's parents being killed, who were also good friends with Dougen (especially Shin's father, believe it or not..) it was still pretty significant. (That was his friend after all.) A big event doesn't have to mean an event that could start a major disaster or something, but it was big in the sense that it had significance.

And so was the Mawari incident. It's just that Dougen thought it was already solved or he probably underestimated its importance. Maybe he captured what he thought was the culprit--I don't know. But still, similar to other happenings, this one also got his attention.
kk1 wrote:I'd say it was rather quick, for Mitsuomi to sell a couple buildings and then pull it off before Dougen found that out and suspected anything it had to be. Maybe Souhaku had planned it out for a lot longer but Mitsuomi did it all in little more than a month after Shin died, it says so right in vol 8. I know I couldn't plan a takeover that fast :wink:
I wouldn't be able to either. Hence, not on one go. :wink:


As for the current story, it's really become very confusing. I just think it looks too convenient that Makiko had some Dragons for Souhaku to transfer into Kagiroi. It makes you wonder how the collection activities weren't able to alarm the other clans. (I mean, Dragon Palm? So does this confirm an Exorcist can use 8th Gates too? Surely Hotaru must've known that someone in her family has lost the ability to use it all of a sudden--unless she just hasn't mentioned it yet.)

Even though Dougen himself wasn't so sure just what Souhaku is really up to, there's only one clan that can do the collecting. Dougen should've checked this one out as well, but maybe he eventually became too caught up in his dreams of being able to bring out the True Warrior.
FuguTabetai wrote:p.s. by the time the next chapter comes out, I should be Fugu Tabetai P.h.D., or Fugu Tabetai D.h.D. (Dhhoctor of Drunkedness.)
Congratulations in advance! I guess you're going to be more drunk during the celebrating, huh? :p
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Post by kk1 »

EliteF22 wrote:Yeah, pretty sure that Tetsuhito doesn't have the dragon fist. I think that whole thing started because someone took the comparison between Souichirou and Tetsuhito as to meaning that they are blood related, whereas it most likely just meant they have multiple dragon gates. .
Yes, that's exactly the way it was stated in the manga, Tetsuhito and Nagi are the only 2 who can open multiple gates.

EliteF22 wrote: They transferred the dragon's Makiko ate to Tetsuhito, because as Souhaku said it was too much for her body to handle. Not sure where he got Dragon Palm. Makiko probably ate it. A union between a Hotaru and a Kagiroi just doesn't look like it ever happened..
Yeah that was my idea as I didn't see this coming at all and couldn't think of a better explanation. So every gate Tetsuhito has (unless he did have one of his own originally) came from ones Makiko ate.

EliteF22 wrote: Hmm, since at the beginning of the chapter Souhaku said the whole mansion was made to amplify Makiko's power, that could mean he was indeed repressing her so as she wouldn't be consumed by her dragon. The last chapter seemed to reveal that the mansion only amplifies the demon exorcists Nagi's powers.
Like Nagi it wouldn't consume her until she opened her gates and used it, so there is no need for it to be repressed.
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Post by kk1 »

kujoe wrote:
As for the current story, it's really become very confusing. I just think it looks too convenient that Makiko had some Dragons for Souhaku to transfer into Kagiroi. It makes you wonder how the collection activities weren't able to alarm the other clans. (I mean, Dragon Palm? So does this confirm an Exorcist can use 8th Gates too? Surely Hotaru must've known that someone in her family has lost the ability to use it all of a sudden--unless she just hasn't mentioned it yet.)
Same as it is now, who knew Nagi was eating dragons? Shidzuru didn't know why they wanted her.

kujoe wrote:
Even though Dougen himself wasn't so sure just what Souhaku is really up to, there's only one clan that can do the collecting. Dougen should've checked this one out as well, but maybe he eventually became too caught up in his dreams of being able to bring out the True Warrior.
I don't think he started the "true warrior" stuff until after Kaima died, remember he said Kaima was going to be the one in charge of helping the red feathers. He had to make other plans after that.
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Post by kujoe »

kk1 wrote:Same as it is now, who knew Nagi was eating dragons? Shidzuru didn't know why they wanted her.
But surely a Red feather clan member who has lost his Dragon would've reached someone's ears. Even Shidzuru went to the mansion to avenge her brother.
kk1 wrote:I don't think he started the "true warrior" stuff until after Kaima died, remember he said Kaima was going to be the one in charge of helping the red feathers. He had to make other plans after that.
Yeah, that's what I meant. In a way, having Shin under Dougen may have given the old man something to do.

It still makes me wonder what Souhaku is really up to--and what kind of plan is it for Makiko to have thought it was a such great thing. Makiko may not be so innocent as she was portrayed before, but her remarks "about that man losing his way..." seems to also imply there must have been something worth working for somewhere.

Just look at her face. She really believed in Souhaku's cause--in a so-called future that she thought they were both envisioning.
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Post by kk1 »

FuguTabetai wrote:
As for the rest of the story, I'm not clear on what the deal is with the eyeball either; I thought that the eyeball could be implanted into someone to transfer all of the Dragons that had gathered in there while Makiko was being tortured. I don't think Tetsuhito has that eye now though, so I don't know if that is what happened to it. I get the feeling that Souhaku has been keeping it this whole time for his own purposes. I think the Dragons might have been transferred from Makiko to Tetsuhito in some other way, using needles, wires, whatever, but I don't know.
I think he's keeping it for something too, in case he ever had a chance to get the "dragon's eye"? Maybe that's why he cut her arm off too, maybe his power let's him somehow animate her arm to use the dragon fist, and he wanted somewhere to put the gate?
The dragon eye is the most powerful red power(that we know of) since it let's you tap the ki of the entire planet.
FuguTabetai wrote:
I do think Makiko was involved in the past in eating others' Dragons, which really shows that she has gone to some extremes, and is not the pure virtuous character she was earlier portrayed to be. I really do like the depth of the characters though, as she does have something to believe in to motivate her helping out Kago. Kago now seems even more calculating - he really did just cast her off, feigning love, when she became useless to him.
I think it happened the same as with Nagi, Souhaku would bring them then she would "eat" them though she seems to have done it willingly and Nagi had Inue compel him. I don't know if that makes her less virtuous, she's just obviously blinded by her love, can't wait to see what event shattered that blind faith. (no pun intended), though I'm sure it's most likely Nagi. Giving up your eye, sheesh.
FuguTabetai wrote: Interesting chapter overall though. And man, it really is fun to have something interesting to translate.

p.s. by the time the next chapter comes out, I should be Fugu Tabetai P.h.D., or Fugu Tabetai D.h.D. (Dhhoctor of Drunkedness.)
Yeah and longer than average too, and congratulations "Doc" hope the job market returns you fair value for that investment.
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Post by EliteF22 »

You know for all his rhetoric, it really looks like Souhaku does care for Makiko. All he needed was her eye to restart his plan. The eye contained the memory of all the different dragons specific "ki." But as he said he went an extra step and transferred the dragons in Makiko to Tetsuhito, thus saving her. When she began to oppose him afterwards, instead of killing her he cut off her arm. He keeps letting her live, so deep down inside his soul he does care for her. He just cares about his plan to create "the true demon" more than he cares for her, so he won't stop what he's doing.
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Post by Asunder »

EliteF22 wrote:You know for all his rhetoric, it really looks like Souhaku does care for Makiko. All he needed was her eye to restart his plan. The eye contained the memory of all the different dragons specific "ki." But as he said he went an extra step and transferred the dragons in Makiko to Tetsuhito, thus saving her. When she began to oppose him afterwards, instead of killing her he cut off her arm. He keeps letting her live, so deep down inside his soul he does care for her. He just cares about his plan to create "the true demon" more than he cares for her, so he won't stop what he's doing.
What a sweetie. Now all he needs to do is go back and make more babies with Makiko. After getting beat up, of course.
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Post by ZoddGuts »

Asunder wrote:

What a sweetie. Now all he needs to do is go back and make more babies with Makiko. After getting beat up, of course.
lol doubt that then again.... I wouldn't be surprise that Makiko is willing to forgive him because remember in the hospital scene when she was in the hospital bed she imagine hugging Souhaku and was crying... Yup she still loves him. Awe to be in love....
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Post by kujoe »

Just wondering...

If Makiko's eye allows someone who's not from the proper bloodline to use certain abilities due to the memory that's stored in it, does this mean that Kagiroi has Makiko's eye transplanted into him already? Or is Souhaku still keeping it somewhere?
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Post by kk1 »

kujoe wrote:Just wondering...

If Makiko's eye allows someone who's not from the proper bloodline to use certain abilities due to the memory that's stored in it, does this mean that Kagiroi has Makiko's eye transplanted into him already? Or is Souhaku still keeping it somewhere?
It's not in Tetsuhito. I'm beginning to think when Souhaku said that he was speaking metaphorically, like a normal eyeball stores short term memories, so this eyeball is full of the memories of Makiko getting "ki" since her eye watched it all happen...not literally full of that "ki", since it obviuosly went into Tetsuhito and he kept the eye in a jar.
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Post by EliteF22 »

It seems that the dragons ki are all different from each other. Not just in the physical representation of them, i.e. fire, water, electricity..., but the actual signature of it. So for all those born with a dragon their ki is actually tuned to their dragon's ki signature. So Makiko's eye contains the memory of all those signatures, so the person receiving the eye's memory would know how to tune their ki to each dragon? Then they'd be able to use that dragon?
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Post by Mr_Minou »

hm sorry if it was said before but, don't you think that young Makiko looks alot like Aya ? (yeah yeah Aya, not Maya ;)) especially on page 37 when she smiles...Plus the whole "I have to believe in the one I love" thing, reminds me a lot of Aya :)
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Post by MrProphet »

Young Makiko looks like the younger sister.
Older Makiko looks like the older sister.

Makes sense, you know. 8)
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Post by Chello »

I think Souhaku is keeping Makino's eye on ice. He's waiting for Aya to show up and he's going to try to put her Dragons Eye into Makino's eye. I'm not sure how he's going to do this, but I think that's his plan.
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Post by aok »

Kinda side-tracking this thread...but I think it would be a good idea to include those magazine covers that a relevant (like in the first post) in the scanlation releases.
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Post by Tachibana »

oh man Souhaku's such a badass!!!! :D Too bad he had to do all that bad stuff in the past.
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Post by kujoe »

kk1 wrote:...not literally full of that "ki", since it obviuosly went into Tetsuhito and he kept the eye in a jar.
Yeah, I got that part but I'm referring to the conversation between Souhaku and Fu Chien--especially what Fu Chien says.

I'm also wondering if Fu Chien is a bit contradicting here. First of all, Souhaku says that Makiko's eye is the only thing that doesn't have a Dragon's Gate. (p53) And then, Fu Chien refers to it by also mentioning "the super-natural power that resides in that eyeball..." (p54).
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Post by FuguTabetai »

aok wrote:Kinda side-tracking this thread...but I think it would be a good idea to include those magazine covers that a relevant (like in the first post) in the scanlation releases.
I don't release scanlations of Tenjo Tenge. I just put out text translations.
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Post by FuguTabetai »

kujoe wrote:
kk1 wrote:...not literally full of that "ki", since it obviuosly went into Tetsuhito and he kept the eye in a jar.
Yeah, I got that part but I'm referring to the conversation between Souhaku and Fu Chien--especially what Fu Chien says.

I'm also wondering if Fu Chien is a bit contradicting here. First of all, Souhaku says that Makiko's eye is the only thing that doesn't have a Dragon's Gate. (p53) And then, Fu Chien refers to it by also mentioning "the super-natural power that resides in that eyeball..." (p54).
It sounded to me like Fu Chi'en was guessing about why Souhaku would be doing this to Makiko - and in the end, while he said things that were likely true, was wrong. Souhaku said that basically none of this was necessary except that Makiko's body was too weak. If she had a stronger body, he would have just used her directly. I also think that due to how things developed with Makiko, he changed his idea of what he would need - see when he is talking over the panels with Tetsuhito, he says he wants someone that "loves nobody" and without morals or ethics, that would just do what he says, and follow his heart. So I think Makiko's emotional attachment soured things for him in some way.

I don't know why he popped the eye out - I assume, like Fu Chi'en did, that one could transplant it into someone to transfer the gates. Maybe that is right, but it certainly wasn't confirmed by Souhaku.
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Post by kujoe »

Thanks for clearing that up and providing your own view with regard to how things developed. Hmmm...

Fu Chien's dialogue just seems to immediately contradict Souhaku's previous statements especially when the whole thing is still quite unclear--and all of this within one conversation.
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Post by shouki »


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Post by shouki »

Chello wrote:I think Souhaku is keeping Makino's eye on ice. He's waiting for Aya to show up and he's going to try to put her Dragons Eye into Makino's eye. I'm not sure how he's going to do this, but I think that's his plan.
Given how Souhaku is currently missing a Dragon Eye user's power, and Aya is the only known one left alive, it seems a pretty easy bet that the two are going to have a close encounter. Since Aya knows all about the eye now, she could probably find its location and use it herself. (ugh)
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Post by shouki »

FuguTabetai wrote:I put in comments on those two because you can translate them in a variety of ways. I think the under-estimated interpretation is pretty valid, so put it in the comment. But the most common usage of namerareru is for being mocked and/or taunted. Same thing with the tie - restricting is probably better word choice than what I have, but not as accurate. Anyway, yes, she is speaking in a somewhat mocking manner I think. We'll probably see her throw the sling off in the next chapter and bust out some whoop-ass. I hope. :)
In my experiance in manga/anime, "namerareru" almost always means "to be under-estimated" or "to be taken lightly", especially in fights.

Maya's second line is "kono washi ni tsukamaete... nou?" - "kono washi" indicates a high opinion of oneself, and if she was refering to the tie (ie "you think this'd hamper *me*?") I think she'd have used a different verb. I checked up on the use of "tsukamaeru" in other cases (in other manga), and I found some examples of it being used in fights in a kind of "to get me" sense. As in "get a solid blow on me" sort of thing, not capture or restrict.

So I'd translate Maya's lines as:
"I'm being taken lightly yet again..."
"You thought you'd taken *me* out... eh?"

(lot of ellipsis going on here... so have guess the missing words)


btw, I think bubble 5 on the last page is Maya's line, not part of the narration - ie "It's been a long time since my blood was boiling!!". It has the type of style you'd expect from her at any rate - using "oru" instead of "iru" and having "wa" at the end.
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Post by kk1 »

kujoe wrote:Thanks for clearing that up and providing your own view with regard to how things developed. Hmmm...

Fu Chien's dialogue just seems to immediately contradict Souhaku's previous statements especially when the whole thing is still quite unclear--and all of this within one conversation.
That whole thing was confusing, especially after Makiko's own explanation way back when. Hopefully it gets cleared up more next chapter. I wonder if it has something to do with Souhaku's own power, remember where he put the charm to control zombie Fu? :wink:
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Post by Agent_Wax »

Maya was 10 at the moment, so I doubt that she weilded Reiki. Probably Kaima had it, or his relative (if Kaima had the Dragon Eye).
Uhm, no. Her parents already sort of gave it to her then.

You didn't say it but that's what we we're arguing in that post, so if not that I don't really know what you're trying to argue here, Souhaku's been having 12 family leaders killed, Dougen suspects him but can't implicate him because the person directly doing the killing isn't him. Nothing else to argue. It was no "bigger" an incident than Shin's parents murder.
Yup.

No the "gate" is on her fist, no fists no "gate".
This has been an interesting chapter on "dragon gates" so now here's my revised Dragon Gate Theory version 7.0
I think we misinterpretted the 7 normal gates things from what Shidzuru said and how Nagi and Makiko collected them. It seems they are family specific too, everyone doesn't have all 7 but everyone can be born with one of them(and only one)not all 7 only red feathers have can be born with the extra 8 th ones. Whew that sure clears up alot of the misunderstanding.
Huh? Everyone has 7 gates, at least. This was stated earlier. And yes, it seems like specific 8th gates are stored in specific body parts. Soichirou's Dragon Fist is in his right arm, and I suspect that Makiko's is in her left. I suspect that when she finally comes to realise that her husband has been using her, she turns on Souhaku and attempts to eat HIS dragon, prompting him to cut off her left arm. Without her Dragon Fist, she is then no threat and of no use to anyone. Why would Dougen groom Soichirou to take on F if Makiko still had the fist all along?

PS On the other note, either Makiko is a REALLY gullible woman (being in love or something), or Souhaku had some kind of a extremely brilliant plan. Nothing else can explain why Makiko was so willing to go through all this. And she was willing alright (pg. 52).
Emotions make you stupid. Plus we've seen that Souhaku has ways of manipulating people and convincing them to do his bidding.

If that is the case, then why didn't anybody try to attack Aya directlyl? First they were hunting that stupid chip, then Nagi, then Madoka/Masa.
They were hunting Masa because he had the chip on him. I don't know why Souhaku didn't take Aya with them at the hospital. Perhaps he thought he needed time to prepare Soichirou before letting him eat her Dragon Eye.

Mitsuomi appears to be drained after that last fight and Souhaku has plans for Souichirou. Smells like a trap.
Their plan is really rather stupid to begin with. Just the four of them waltzing into Souhaku's fortress? If it was that easy, the old guys would have done that years ago. Mitsoumi at least should have the brains to bring the Enforcement group and the rest of Jyuukenbu.

What what he says in the end about the Dragon's Eye leads me to believe that he was actually planning to transplant the Ryuugan the same way he did with Makiko.
Uhm, what I understand from that is that the only viable organ left that is devoid of dragons is the eye, allowing them to force the other dragons into it and then remove it from her. Perhaps this is what is in store for Soichirou as well.

As for the current story, it's really become very confusing. I just think it looks too convenient that Makiko had some Dragons for Souhaku to transfer into Kagiroi. It makes you wonder how the collection activities weren't able to alarm the other clans. (I mean, Dragon Palm? So does this confirm an Exorcist can use 8th Gates too? Surely Hotaru must've known that someone in her family has lost the ability to use it all of a sudden--unless she just hasn't mentioned it yet.)

Even though Dougen himself wasn't so sure just what Souhaku is really up to, there's only one clan that can do the collecting. Dougen should've checked this one out as well, but maybe he eventually became too caught up in his dreams of being able to bring out the True Warrior.
Dead men tell no tales, dude. Why do you think Souhaku orchestrated their deaths? You can't tell if X's dragon has been stolen if X is dead...


Oh, and I think the first page of Fight 79 is new as well. Don't recall ever seeing it...


Oh, and Fugu: I'm curious why you translated daitengu as 'goblin'. I know some sources actually use that translation, but I really don't think it is appropriate to call Tengu-sama a pathetic muck-raking goblin. :)
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Post by kk1 »

Agent_Wax wrote:
Agent_Wax wrote:[
No the "gate" is on her fist, no fists no "gate".
This has been an interesting chapter on "dragon gates" so now here's my revised Dragon Gate Theory version 7.0
I think we misinterpretted the 7 normal gates things from what Shidzuru said and how Nagi and Makiko collected them. It seems they are family specific too, everyone doesn't have all 7 but everyone can be born with one of them(and only one)not all 7 only red feathers have can be born with the extra 8 th ones. Whew that sure clears up alot of the misunderstanding.
Huh? Everyone has 7 gates, at least. This was stated earlier. And yes, it seems like specific 8th gates are stored in specific body parts. Soichirou's Dragon Fist is in his right arm, and I suspect that Makiko's is in her left. I suspect that when she finally comes to realise that her husband has been using her, she turns on Souhaku and attempts to eat HIS dragon, prompting him to cut off her left arm. Without her Dragon Fist, she is then no threat and of no use to anyone. Why would Dougen groom Soichirou to take on F if Makiko still had the fist all along?
I'm just saying maybe we misinterpreted it from everyone has 7 to everyone can have them. It would explain the way gates have been portrayed up until now. And Nagi's is in both his fists, just Like Mataza's was on both his, look at his fight with Ishiyumi,when he spits his tooth at him, it's clearly shown on his left fist too. Makiko's had to be on both hers too, how else did she drain Nagi of his ki in his fight with Mataza?
Dougen groomed Nagi for the same reason Souhaku gave up on using Makiko, her body is too weak.
Agent_Wax wrote:[
PS On the other note, either Makiko is a REALLY gullible woman (being in love or something), or Souhaku had some kind of a extremely brilliant plan. Nothing else can explain why Makiko was so willing to go through all this. And she was willing alright (pg. 52).
Emotions make you stupid. Plus we've seen that Souhaku has ways of manipulating people and convincing them to do his bidding.
It also may be his power too.
Agent_Wax wrote:
If that is the case, then why didn't anybody try to attack Aya directlyl? First they were hunting that stupid chip, then Nagi, then Madoka/Masa.
They were hunting Masa because he had the chip on him. I don't know why Souhaku didn't take Aya with them at the hospital. Perhaps he thought he needed time to prepare Soichirou before letting him eat her Dragon Eye.
I imagine the dragon eye is so powerful, like you said, he had to let Nagi build up to it, if absorbing Mataza's power almost blew him up absorbing Aya's surely would have.

Agent_Wax wrote:
Mitsuomi appears to be drained after that last fight and Souhaku has plans for Souichirou. Smells like a trap.
Their plan is really rather stupid to begin with. Just the four of them waltzing into Souhaku's fortress? If it was that easy, the old guys would have done that years ago. Mitsoumi at least should have the brains to bring the Enforcement group and the rest of Jyuukenbu.
I was shocked too when I realized they we're going after Souhaku. Is Mitsuomi just not afraid of him or was that not him appearing drained but perhaps having second thoughts about going after Souhaku or maybe about betraying Maya to him?

Agent_Wax wrote:[
What what he says in the end about the Dragon's Eye leads me to believe that he was actually planning to transplant the Ryuugan the same way he did with Makiko.
Uhm, what I understand from that is that the only viable organ left that is devoid of dragons is the eye, allowing them to force the other dragons into it and then remove it from her. Perhaps this is what is in store for Soichirou as well.
But they put the dragons into Tetsuhito not the eye. Right? Maybe he took it so Makiko couldn't take the Dragon eye and thwart his plans? Maybe that's how her eye got that dragon thing on it, after she turned on Souhaku she tried to eat Shin's dragon and with no eye for it to go into it sorta backfired? I'm not going to speculate on the eye anymore until it's explained later because that was too confusing.

Agent_Wax wrote:
As for the current story, it's really become very confusing. I just think it looks too convenient that Makiko had some Dragons for Souhaku to transfer into Kagiroi. It makes you wonder how the collection activities weren't able to alarm the other clans. (I mean, Dragon Palm? So does this confirm an Exorcist can use 8th Gates too? Surely Hotaru must've known that someone in her family has lost the ability to use it all of a sudden--unless she just hasn't mentioned it yet.)

Even though Dougen himself wasn't so sure just what Souhaku is really up to, there's only one clan that can do the collecting. Dougen should've checked this one out as well, but maybe he eventually became too caught up in his dreams of being able to bring out the True Warrior.
Dead men tell no tales, dude. Why do you think Souhaku orchestrated their deaths? You can't tell if X's dragon has been stolen if X is dead...


I'm starting to wonder what generation the ex-generals we saw are and how many parents(of F and the other red feathers) are dead, where's Souhaku's parents(or grandparents)? Obviously the Mawari represenative is older since we know Madoka's parents are dead, but what about the rest, alot looked pretty old.
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Post by Agent_Wax »

I'm just saying maybe we misinterpreted it from everyone has 7 to everyone can have them. It would explain the way gates have been portrayed up until now. And Nagi's is in both his fists, just Like Mataza's was on both his, look at his fight with Ishiyumi,when he spits his tooth at him, it's clearly shown on his left fist too. Makiko's had to be on both hers too, how else did she drain Nagi of his ki in his fight with Mataza?
Dougen groomed Nagi for the same reason Souhaku gave up on using Makiko, her body is too weak.
Hmm. I'm not sure how well Great sticks to Indian mysticism, because in mysticism, humans have 7 chakras. ALL humans. But only those with training and special skills can opoen and utilise them.

And, sorry, but I don't really agree with the assessment because I don't think Makiko 'ate' the energy from her son, at least not like how the Dragon Fist 'eats' other dragons. Otherwise, it would mean that she took the Dragon Claw from him. But it's certainly plausible, of course.
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Post by kujoe »

Agent_Wax wrote:Dead men tell no tales, dude. Why do you think Souhaku orchestrated their deaths? You can't tell if X's dragon has been stolen if X is dead...
It just feels so incrediblely written off--in the sense while people were being killed, Dougen was simply just there, fixing up the mess, probably chasing the so-called culprits while being suspicious of Souhaku. It would've helped if this was more established earlier or something.

As for Nagi's Dragon Fist, I used to think it was only on one arm, but even that avatar has it on his left. Probably there's no connection and I'm just reading into things but I don't think it changes anything whether it's on the right, the left or both.
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Post by FuguTabetai »

Agent_Wax wrote: Oh, and Fugu: I'm curious why you translated daitengu as 'goblin'. I know some sources actually use that translation, but I really don't think it is appropriate to call Tengu-sama a pathetic muck-raking goblin. :)
Ogre is better perhaps. I didn't have any real reason to translate it that way, just didn't think leaving "tengu" would make any sense. I'll go back and change it to ogre I think.
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Post by shouki »

FuguTabetai wrote:Ogre is better perhaps. I didn't have any real reason to translate it that way, just didn't think leaving "tengu" would make any sense. I'll go back and change it to ogre I think.
If you want to keep it as "tengu" but put in some references, here's a bunch I dug up with Google:
http://www2.kanawa.com/japan/critter.html#tengu
http://www.youkaimura.org/tengu.htm
http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/tengu.shtml
http://wynn.molgen.gla.ac.uk/DCstuff/clans/tengu.html
http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue2/tengu.html
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Post by kk1 »

Agent_Wax wrote:
I'm just saying maybe we misinterpreted it from everyone has 7 to everyone can have them. It would explain the way gates have been portrayed up until now. And Nagi's is in both his fists, just Like Mataza's was on both his, look at his fight with Ishiyumi,when he spits his tooth at him, it's clearly shown on his left fist too. Makiko's had to be on both hers too, how else did she drain Nagi of his ki in his fight with Mataza?
Dougen groomed Nagi for the same reason Souhaku gave up on using Makiko, her body is too weak.
Hmm. I'm not sure how well Great sticks to Indian mysticism, because in mysticism, humans have 7 chakras. ALL humans. But only those with training and special skills can opoen and utilise them.

And, sorry, but I don't really agree with the assessment because I don't think Makiko 'ate' the energy from her son, at least not like how the Dragon Fist 'eats' other dragons. Otherwise, it would mean that she took the Dragon Claw from him. But it's certainly plausible, of course.
Well then maybe people have all 7 of them but can only ever open 1 specific gate, like no matter how much Ishiyumi trains the water gate is the only one he could ever open. I still think it goes back to the whole dragons/gates separation issue. Makiko actually says people have 7 "dragons" living in them, so maybe everyone has all 7 dragons but only one gate. So Shidzuru for example has 7 dragons but only the air gate.

That chapter is confusing, they discuss her power being the dragon fist and that she absorbed the ki but it wasn't "eaten", because it was too big. Maybe she has more control and made sure she absorbed the ki but didn't eat his gate? As some one else once theororized maybe a Nagi can't eat another Nagi because they already have that gate themselves, in effect canceling each other out.
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