Fight 89

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Post by shouki » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:24 am

Umm... the plot just gets thicker and thicker.

ugly-bitch is talking about re-uniting the blood split up 2000 years ago, using Souichirou, to create a being even more powerful than Souhaku.

Mitsuomi tells Madoka to take Reiki to help the two at the gate. The Maya on page 19 (17th image file) is Mitsumi's imagination ("Hahaha, got you! So you do have a cute side to you! Did you think I'd croak so easily huh?"). Hmm, on page 21 when Maya starts to fall down, her hands still seem to be stuck in the same pose as on page 14. I think Mitsuomi gives a kinda "I'll be following you soon" speech.

Then Aya-ghost shows up again, and it's time to show Aya the most important thing. On page 26, something she says (that we don't hear), causes Aya to say "They can be saved? Souichorou-sama... Mitsuomi... and onee-chan...?".

Aya doesn't have any Ki left (for spiritual time-travel), but Aya-ghost says that a little of the Ki Maya collected for 2 years remains "in her body". Aya-ghost also says that when Aya knows everything, they'll become one.

So Aya-ghost was a prostitute from Nobunaga's time. And she has Reiki for some reason. Looks like we'll get to see Reiki's back-story at last. And who's her regular customer (the guy being carried). It could be some new guy, or maybe someone looking like Masakata...

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Post by kk1 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:39 pm

shouki wrote:
ugly-bitch is talking about re-uniting the blood split up 2000 years ago, using Souichirou, to create a being even more powerful than Souhaku.
So she's doing this all on her own? Hmmmm


shouki wrote: Mitsuomi tells Madoka to take Reiki to help the two at the gate. The Maya on page 19 (17th image file) is Mitsumi's imagination ("Hahaha, got you! So you do have a cute side to you! Did you think I'd croak so easily huh?"). Hmm, on page 21 when Maya starts to fall down, her hands still seem to be stuck in the same pose as on page 14. I think Mitsuomi gives a kinda "I'll be following you soon" speech.
Yeah I wondered which way Madoka was running (though I assumed it was that way since she passed Tet's head). "I'll be following you..." where? She's not dead yet, oris she?


shouki wrote: Then Aya-ghost shows up again, and it's time to show Aya the most important thing. On page 26, something she says (that we don't hear), causes Aya to say "They can be saved? Souichorou-sama... Mitsuomi... and onee-chan...?".
Haha all you Aya-haters she's going to save everyone, I love Aya.

shouki wrote: Aya doesn't have any Ki left (for spiritual time-travel), but Aya-ghost says that a little of the Ki Maya collected for 2 years remains "in her body". Aya-ghost also says that when Aya knows everything, they'll become one.
What is this ghost thing is it part of her power, I know it's been theororized here it's her dragon gate or even Reiki, but?

shouki wrote: So Aya-ghost was a prostitute from Nobunaga's time. And she has Reiki for some reason. Looks like we'll get to see Reiki's back-story at last. And who's her regular customer (the guy being carried). It could be some new guy, or maybe someone looking like Masakata...
Is it the ghost of that girl(ghosty has Aya's cup size not hers)? Or is that girl the Natsume family ancestor, it'd explain why she has Reiki?

Like you said the plot thickens, thanks for the summary shouki.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:51 pm

EliteF22 wrote:I'm kinda hoping that we don't see new Souichirou until the last tournament match between Jyukenbu and Enforcement Group. Feel like it would be more dramatic that way. .
Ooo yeah that would be cool.

EliteF22 wrote: Maya didn't actually fall into Mit's arms. More like she was falling down and then he went and caught her. I feel the ships sailed on that relationship, despite that they still have feelings for each other.
??? No, we've all know since the first volume Maya's still in love with Mitsuomi, we finally get to see that despite all he's done and how he acts Mitsuomi feels the same. This looks more like a turning point than the end to me.

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Post by kk1 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:54 pm

EliteF22 wrote:Hey, on page 12 bottom panel the guys surrounding Souichirou appear to be the (original?) heads of the 12 founding families. Who are the two that are missing? I'm guessing that Souhaku as head of Kago could be one, but who's the other family? .
The one in the center the Nagi.

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Post by protocol7 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:54 pm

man this is a great chapter even in raw form i still love it.

now that i think about it sho haku was probably smiling when mits cut his head cause of de ja vu or extreme irony since he or his ancestor did it in the past to mits ancestor

it seems maya is a vegetable seriously!!

hope she's fine but time for more history flashback hell yea

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:00 pm

after going through what looked like maya dieing in chap 87, then not showing us anything in 88. Just to have her stand back up in 89 and die for real seems a bit unlikely.

If oh! great is going to kill off a main character in his storey he could.. but doing it in a way like "haha, fooled you! she is really dead now" seems very un likely.


that said, it does not look like she was trying to fall into his arms, it looks like she just passed out and he cought her. Am glad Ayas ghost said she still had some ki left tho.

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Post by Hollowshingami » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:26 pm

It looks Maya is still alive. She probably just collapsed from exhaustion.

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Post by EliteF22 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:31 pm

Kagiroi is actually a pretty old dude right? He was just using some technique to remain young, and then reverted to his original appearance once he died?

Mit's imagination. That was interesting. So all she did was stand up and then pass out again.

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:51 pm

Well, we knew that Kago gate had something to do with necromancy (hence, Frankie Fu), so him prolonging his own life and Kagiroi's was not unexpected. But you'd think that Dougen would take note of this, no?

Also, it would be interesting to see, if the 12 Families were formed from Nobunaga's other illegitimate children, while Takayanagi were the descendants of the "main line". That would certainly make sense and explain why they have these powers and why they serve the Takayanagi, if they are from a single clan and all related...

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Post by protocol7 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:17 pm

well i doubt that maya will die on a serious note catatonic for a few chaps but im sure aya will find a way to save her.

well if this guy really was the "true warrior" he got owned easily by sho haku damn!

if he had all those abilities show me some stuff .

ps who would of guesed maya was a prostitiue in the past life :roll:

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Post by Agent_Wax » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:32 pm

Also, it would be interesting to see, if the 12 Families were formed from Nobunaga's other illegitimate children, while Takayanagi were the descendants of the "main line". That would certainly make sense and explain why they have these powers and why they serve the Takayanagi, if they are from a single clan and all related...
Err, where does it say that Nobunaga founded the families? Would someone as powerful as that allow himself to be surrounded and killed that easily? Besides, if the details of the ancestor story are correct, then the bloodlines go back much farther in time. Certainly more than 500 years.

Oh, and Maya looks pretty dead to me. Sensei even hints at it with the 'wings' motif on her back in one panel.

And is it just me, or is the art kinda weak this chapter?
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Post by EliteF22 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:36 pm

I guess he was busy this month. Yeah, he hardly drew any backgrounds for this chapter. I guess it all went to that two page spread in the beginning.

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:53 pm

Agent_Wax wrote:Err, where does it say that Nobunaga founded the families?
I was obviously speculating. However, think of what was shown to us:

1) The girl, Aya-2, got Reiki from Nobunaga. She was his concubine, so she might have gotten a child by him.

2) Natsume now have Reiki, so either they must have gotten it from Aya-2 descendants, or they ARE Aya-2 descendants themselves. Thus they come from Oda blood, although illegitimately.

3) Mitsuomi demands Reiki back from Maya. Why would he do that if he is not Nobunaga's descendant?

4) If Natsume were the illegitimate children of Nobunaga, and Takayanagi were his legitimate children, then why not suppose that other families also trace their lineage to Nobunaga?

It is all just guessing. But there is something to it, in my opinion... The facts seem to fit it.

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Post by EliteF22 » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:30 pm

Yeah, but the timeline doesn't seem to fit. So far the impression is that the blood was split much earlier.

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Post by MrProphet » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:35 pm

Can you point to a chapter where that is noted?

Also, Oh!great is not really know for always sticking to continuity at all costs. 8)

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Post by Hollowshingami » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:07 am

Didn't Tetsuhito say, when he was talking with Makiko, that Souhaku said that 'we must surpass the time of 2000 years ago and unite the seperated blood into one'. So that might mean the blood was split at that time or was began to. I believe it was fight 85.

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Post by EliteF22 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:26 am

He mentioned to Maya that Kagiroi women had been downing iron sand for two thousand years. So that let's us know that the 12 families are at least two thousand years old. Plus what Hollowshingami said was right to, also from the same chapter. Gives the impression that the blood was split a long time ago.

Hey, Hollowshingami aren't you missing an i in shinigami?

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Post by Hollowshingami » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:33 am

Yup. :) I've just never bothered to change it.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:49 am

The girl, Aya-2, got Reiki from Nobunaga.
Umm. This is entirely speculation at present. We don't know who made Reiki. She might have been given it by a Takayanagi. She might even be a Takayanagi herself. God (and sensei) only knows what happened in the 500 years of missing history for Reiki to end up with the Natsumes.

Also, it was mentioned that the Natsumes were once of higher standing than the Takayanagi. It's unlikely that they were illegitimate.
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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:41 am

MrProphet wrote:Can you point to a chapter where that is noted?

Also, Oh!great is not really know for always sticking to continuity at all costs. 8)
Seems like he sticks to it to me, and you've completely overlooked the fact that Nobunaga is killed by Souhaku so how could he possibly be his ancestor, duh?

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:45 am

Didn't Tetsuhito say, when he was talking with Makiko, that Souhaku said that 'we must surpass the time of 2000 years ago and unite the seperated blood into one'. So that might mean the blood was split at that time or was began to. I believe it was fight 85.
Look carefully at what Tetsuhito is saying:

"Souhaku has often said 'We must surpass the time of 2000 years ago and unite the separated blood into one'... or something like that"
v14 c85 p090

Nowhere does it imply that the families were separated 2000 years ago, only that they must surpass the power that used to exist 2000 years ago.

Additionally, the "Susa Man" from volume 14 was so obviously Nobunaga (it is confirmed in chapter 89), which means that while the family of blacksmiths may have existed for a long time, but their Red Feather abilities only started with Susa/Nobunaga's child, who was the beginner of the Kagiroi family.

Same chapter, a page before, Kagiroi says the girl that Susa raped drank iron sand to kill herself, but could not die. Where did you see it mentioned that others from the family also drank iron sand before that?
Umm. This is entirely speculation at present. We don't know who made Reiki.
As for the sword... well, I don't see it any other way. Aya was in Nobunaga's catle during the siege. Nobunaga died and she went back (or just joined) a brothel. Now she has a sword. Where did she get it if not from Nobunaga?
Seems like he sticks to it to me, and you've completely overlooked the fact that Nobunaga is killed by Souhaku so how could he possibly be his ancestor, duh?
He really doesn't, especially when he started the past arc, he decidedly overlooked some of the statements made in the first volumes. Like Mitsuomi killing Shin...

As for Kago, well...

...he could be special...

...or maybe he'a an impostor...

...or it isn't Kago that killed Nobunaga, but Akechi Mitsuhide (Nobunaga mentions Mitsuhide when he sees Souhaku forming from the flying leaves)...

...or it's Oh!great trying to throw us off with a vague scene...
Last edited by MrProphet on Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:53 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:49 am

Agent_Wax wrote: And is it just me, or is the art kinda weak this chapter?
EliteF22 wrote:I guess he was busy this month. Yeah, he hardly drew any backgrounds for this chapter. I guess it all went to that two page spread in the beginning.
Oh my god are you guys nuts? This stuff was gorgeous, especially all the stuff in the past, that snow covered hill, past Aya's kimono the splash page of Maya falling into Mitsuomi's arms, and I always love the way he draws Reiki when it's all cerimonial, BTW anyone else notice Reiki activates on the last panel(the lettering appears and it starts making that noise, another reason why I wonder if present Aya actually went back, and not just watching from the side like this time)?

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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:04 am

MrProphet wrote: As for Kago, well... he could be special...

or maybe he'a an impostor... o

r it isn't Kago that killed Nobunaga, but Akechi Mitsuhide (Nobunaga mentions Mitsuhide when he sees Souhaku forming from the flying leaves)...

or it's Oh!great trying to throw us off with a vague scene...
Or maybe you're wrong, and those aren't leaves they're moths, now where have we seen that before?(Enmi) And guys with spears(Tsumuji), and archers (Ishiyumi)oh hmm those were all divisions of the 12 founding families, looks like they all already existed at the time of Nobunaga, so he must not have founded them. Looks like the Natsumes were already around too, but hey anything's possible however in this case I think your wild speculations are way off. I mean let's at least wait for a translation.

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:12 am

LOL

Just FYI, archers and spearmen and swordsmen are not the invention of Ishiyumi family, or Tsumuji family, or Mawari family. People have used swords and spears for quite some time. 8)

And I have to absolutely argee that a translation of this chapter would help to understand what's going on. Future chapters will also help. Should we then stop the discussion before the current arc is fully over and all questions are answered?

This discussion is about seeing what's there and comparing to what we already know and coming to conclusions. I admit that most of what we are guessing about what the hell is going on would probably turn out to be wrong. However that is not a valid reason to stop discussing.

This is for fun and enjoyment, so take it easy and don't feel all tense just because I proposed something you disargee with. I am totally cool with the others thinking I am wrong. I'll counter their arguments with my own, but hey... it'll all lead to truth coming out sooner or later and that's why we are discussing it here. 8)

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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:14 am

MrProphet wrote:
I was obviously speculating.
Obviously.
MrProphet wrote: However, think of what was shown to us:

1) The girl, Aya-2, got Reiki from Nobunaga. She was his concubine, so she might have gotten a child by him.
I don't see where she was his concubine, that's a whole lot to infer from 2 panels.

MrProphet wrote: 2) Natsume now have Reiki, so either they must have gotten it from Aya-2 descendants, or they ARE Aya-2 descendants themselves. Thus they come from Oda blood, although illegitimately.
Again wow see response to 1)

MrProphet wrote: 3) Mitsuomi demands Reiki back from Maya. Why would he do that if he is not Nobunaga's descendant?
Uhh because he knows what it can do(remeber Shin?) and has wanted it back for what 5 or 6 volumes now.

MrProphet wrote: 4) If Natsume were the illegitimate children of Nobunaga, and Takayanagi were his legitimate children, then why not suppose that other families also trace their lineage to Nobunaga?
Ok I think I'll trace my lineage too him, hey I bet even you're descended from him using that logic, how's it going cousin?

MrProphet wrote: It is all just guessing. But there is something to it, in my opinion... The facts seem to fit it.



What facts? All we've seen are a couple pictures.

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:16 am

Oh, and if they are indeed moths then that can't be Souhaku, right? Emni are a division of the Natsume family, not the Kago family. How would you explain it?
kk1 wrote:I don't see where she was his concubine, that's a whole lot to infer from 2 panels.
Yeah. She was naked in his house because she was a friend of his that came over for tea? RIGHT! 8)
kk1 wrote:Again wow see response to 1)
OK, then you explain to me how Natsume came to possess Reiki when she had it. Please do...
Uhh because he knows what it can do(remeber Shin?) and has wanted it back for what 5 or 6 volumes now.
Could be... But Maya told him to bug off before and he did. What's the rush now? Aya isn't running around killing people...
Ok I think I'll trace my lineage too him, hey I bet even you're descended from him using that logic, how's it going cousin?
Kagoroi are descened from Nobunaga. Natsume COULD be descended from Nobunaga. Takayanagi as well. That's a lot of coincidences.

Also, I wasn't stating it, I was saying that since at least two families are descended from Oda, could it not be that the others are as well?
What facts? All we've seen are a couple pictures.
You've seen a couple of pictures. I've seen the pictures and thought about what they might mean. 8)
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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:18 am

Sleepy Weasel wrote:after going through what looked like maya dieing in chap 87, then not showing us anything in 88. Just to have her stand back up in 89 and die for real seems a bit unlikely.

If oh! great is going to kill off a main character in his storey he could.. but doing it in a way like "haha, fooled you! she is really dead now" seems very un likely.


that said, it does not look like she was trying to fall into his arms, it looks like she just passed out and he cought her. Am glad Ayas ghost said she still had some ki left tho.
Yeah I think she's safe (time to change the avatar back)but I believe Aya's ghost was saying Aya had it, that's how she was able to go back in time again. Though I may be wrong.
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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:19 am

MrProphet wrote:Oh, and if they are indeed moths then that can't be Souhaku, right? Emni are a division of the Natsume family, not the Kago family. How would you explain it?
All the families are united and attacking at once, the Enmi are there helping. Remember they didn't split up and fight each other until recently.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:33 am

Additionally, the "Susa Man" from volume 14 was so obviously Nobunaga (it is confirmed in chapter 89), which means that while the family of blacksmiths may have existed for a long time, but their Red Feather abilities only started with Susa/Nobunaga's child, who was the beginner of the Kagiroi family.


Your other points are plausible, but this one is not. I don't see the resemblance between Nobunaga and the Susa fellow. Also, the clothes and weapons used by Susa (who is obviously a play on Susano, one of the gods in the Japanese myth of creation) are most certainly not Tokugawa period. In fact, the sword design is a common Bronze Age one, seen often in Chinese Bronze age sword designs. Japan does not have a prominent Bronze Age. It was during the Yayoi period that metalsmithing and mining was imported from Korea and China. The Yayoi period occurred from 300 BC (at the latest; carbon-dating on other artifacts put it back as far as 500 BC) to about 250 AD. Which is 2000 years ago, give or take. Most importantly, the founding myth which Tetsuhito narrated stated that their families were founded during the earliest history of the Japanese nation. The Yayoi people are commonly regarded as the ancestors of the modern Japanese, and were physiologically distinct from the Jomon people who dominated the islands before them. Not conclusive of course, but then, nothing is. :wink:
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Post by MrProphet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:40 am

I too was somewhat uncertain if it is him, since Susa looks more muscular than Nobunaga, however, Kagiroi mentions Susa Man as a "shogun". While Oda wasn't The Shogun at the time, he was definitely a general (which the word "shogun" really means). I doubt that you'd see generals in the Bronze age, and shoguns started appearing mostly during the Heian period.

Also, in chapter 89, when the 10 corpses surround Nagi, we see Susa's image among them, in the center, leading me to suppose that he is indeed Nobunaga.

EDIT: I just re-read the part where the old guys appear and Inue does indeed mention 2000 years ago. Yet I am still hesitant, not the least because the corpses wear clothes that were more prevalent in late Yamato, early Nara-Heian period. Definitely not 2000 years ago. Kago himself is wearing very distinct Heian court clothes.

If those are indeed the very first heads of 12 families, then how come they are dressed this way? 2000 years seems more like a generalization, than a real dating. At least to me.

Also, I wonder which two families are missing from the procession that surrounds Nagi? Kago could be one (if he is indeed immortal), but who is the other one?

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Post by EliteF22 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:58 am

I asked about the two missing at the beginning of the discussion. I also think one is Kago, someone mentioned the other might be Nagi. Could be if their creating some sort of ceremonial circle and all you need is one member of a family to take the place.

Susa and Nobunaga's faces aren't quite the same and Susa appears to have a much larger body. Plus, if Nobunaga was the ancestor you would think Kagiroi would know his name since it wasn't that far back. It appears that there may not be anyone who knows the name of Susa; Makiko didn't know the name either.

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Post by protocol7 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:03 am

this theory may be far fetched but it could just be that this scene might just be a historic re-enaction of the 12 families taking down a powerful historic figure in japanses history.

it may just be maen to show the united power fo the families combined and what sho haku is trying to do is bring them (rf) back to their rightful place as power holders in the mordern age.

dougen said it himself that in the past the 12 families were united into a great power and were just about to "soar to the sky" probably before the breakup.

in the mordern age technology and information systems rule battle ability is not really needed with the advent of nuclear weapons, helecopter, tanks the inprovements in mordern tech has rendered RF useless and now they have been forgotten and bieng killed like the ladybugs in the mama nagi and kago scene in vol 14 ver 2.

a great deal of spite is felt buy kago because in the mordern age they have forgotten the debts to the RF perhaps an example when they took down noubu

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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:01 pm

MrProphet wrote:
kk1 wrote:All the families are united and attacking at once, the Enmi are there helping. Remember they didn't split up and fight each other until recently.
I see that you didn't bother to check up on the real history.



The attack had nothing to do with the 12 families.
No shit sherlock, the 12 families are fictional made up by Oh! Great they're not going to be in the real history, geez you're a...OG is just trying to insert his charcters into something that actually happened :roll:

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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:06 pm

protocol7 wrote:this theory may be far fetched but it could just be that this scene might just be a historic re-enaction of the 12 families taking down a powerful historic figure in japanses history.

it may just be maen to show the united power fo the families combined and what sho haku is trying to do is bring them (rf) back to their rightful place as power holders in the mordern age.

dougen said it himself that in the past the 12 families were united into a great power and were just about to "soar to the sky" probably before the breakup.

in the mordern age technology and information systems rule battle ability is not really needed with the advent of nuclear weapons, helecopter, tanks the inprovements in mordern tech has rendered RF useless and now they have been forgotten and bieng killed like the ladybugs in the mama nagi and kago scene in vol 14 ver 2.

a great deal of spite is felt buy kago because in the mordern age they have forgotten the debts to the RF perhaps an example when they took down noubu
Thank you, someone who actually gets it.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:09 pm

MrProphet wrote: If those are indeed the very first heads of 12 families, then how come they are dressed this way? 2000 years seems more like a generalization, than a real dating. At least to me.
I doubt they dressed themselves :wink:

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:09 pm

kk1 wrote:No shit sherlock, the 12 families are fictional made up by Oh! Great they're not going to be in the real history, geez you're a...OG is just trying to insert his charcters into something that actually happened :roll:
The only thing that is being "inserted" is your own make-believe. Oh!great hasn't done it before (change history), why do you think he'd do it now? I would like to hear your line of reasoning on that one.

How did you come to a conclusion that the attacking forces were in fact from the 12 families rather than those of Akechi Mitsuhide, as it really happened in history?

Unlike Nobunaga's possession (or lack thereof) of Reiki, which might or might not have happened outside of common knowledge, the attack on Nobunaga's castle is a recorded event and I just don't why you supposed that Oh!great changed history to suit his story.

He didn't do before, why did you think he did it now?

PS The insult you were trying to throw my way (what was it anyway? geez, I am a what?) marks you for a real tough debater. My advice, just skip it, I don't care about anything other than solid arguments. If you have none, just don't bother telling me I am an idiot, because I am not so easily impressed. 8)

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:14 pm

in the mordern age technology and information systems rule battle ability is not really needed with the advent of nuclear weapons, helecopter, tanks the inprovements in mordern tech has rendered RF useless and now they have been forgotten and bieng killed like the ladybugs in the mama nagi and kago scene in vol 14 ver 2.
I feel you are correct in most of it (at least as far as Kago trying to stage a comeback for the Feathers), but I have this question.

If Kago is indeed trying to rebuilt the true power of the Families, then why was he killing off all these Red Feathers? "Feeding the meat" to Souichirou is one thing, but actually going on a full-scale killing spree is another.

Was it just to consolidate his own power? Then he failed, since he killed so many of the old generation, but achieved nothing. It marks him for a fool and I don't believe Kago is a fool or that he does pointless things without thinking ahead.

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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:46 pm

MrProphet wrote:
kk1 wrote:No shit sherlock, the 12 families are fictional made up by Oh! Great they're not going to be in the real history, geez you're a...OG is just trying to insert his charcters into something that actually happened :roll:
The only thing that is being "inserted" is your own make-believe. Oh!great hasn't done it before (change history), why do you think he'd do it now? I would like to hear your line of reasoning on that one.

How did you come to a conclusion that the attacking forces were in fact from the 12 families rather than those of Akechi Mitsuhide, as it really happened in history?

Unlike Nobunaga's possession (or lack thereof) of Reiki, which might or might not have happened outside of common knowledge, the attack on Nobunaga's castle is a recorded event and I just don't why you supposed that Oh!great changed history to suit his story.

He didn't do before, why did you think he did it now?

PS The insult you were trying to throw my way (what was it anyway? geez, I am a what?) marks you for a real tough debater. My advice, just skip it, I don't care about anything other than solid arguments. If you have none, just don't bother telling me I am an idiot, because I am not so easily impressed. 8)

Oh my dear lord, you can't possibly be this dumb can you?

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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:16 pm

MrProphet wrote:Thank you. Your apprehension of your failure at civilized discussion has been duly noted.
People help me out here, Mr. Prophet did you not read protocol7's post? Have you never seen a movie where they take a well known historical event and insert fictional characters? Like in Back to the Future where Marty sings a Chuck Berry song and they put his cousin there and have him call Chuck Berry to listen and so explain where he got the idea for his song? Or in Indiana Jones he has Indy run into Hitler at a Nazi rally? Or in Forrest Gump where he meets all those presidents? Do I really need to type this all out to explain this to you? Why don't you understand it? Oh! Great has taken a well known historical event and inserted his fictional characters into that event it's pretty common in works of fiction and since this whole manga is fictional and so are the characters they won't be recorded in accounts of the real historical events. Please tell why you fail to grasp this? Otherwise , I'm sorry but I will continue to call you ,stupid, dumb, retarded, mentally deficient and a bunch of other things because this a pretty simple concept to grasp. :roll:

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Post by Sleepy Weasel » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:30 pm

I think everyone should just be entitled to their opinions, and everyone should stop arguing ^^

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Post by protocol7 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:54 pm

I totally agree with u waesel

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:25 pm

LOL

I don't think I need to say anything at all. As our Latin friends used to tell us: res ipsa loquitur, the thing speaks for itself. 8)

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Post by Hollowshingami » Thu Dec 22, 2005 5:35 pm

Man, this chapter has created a lot of hostility. :D

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Post by kk1 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:06 pm

Sleepy Weasel wrote:I think everyone should just be entitled to their opinions, and everyone should stop arguing ^^

I'm not arguing, I just can't believe someone is this stupid. Maybe some of you newer posters don't realize that for almost every single chapter that has come out for a year now Mr Prophet comes up with some completly immpossible unreasonable theory, then I post why he is wrong, he doesn't understand the logic and I have to keep pointing out why he's wrong until he finally sees the light or concedes he's wrong (go look up past discussions for yourself). Now you can see for yourselves above that not only I but other posters have pointed out why he is wrong yet he is still going on and getting upset about it. I don't correct people to make them look stupid but this time I'm too frustrted to bother being nice. Yet even still I went to the trouble to post long drawn out explanations and rebuttals. I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion but if you don't want responses to that opinion don't post here, because I will comment on it. This is a discussion forum that's what it is for and if I see someone post something stupid I'm going to call them like I see them.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:25 pm

Oh! Great has taken a well known historical event and inserted his fictional characters into that event it's pretty common in works of fiction and since this whole manga is fictional and so are the characters they won't be recorded in accounts of the real historical events.
Yes, sensei is giving his own spin on how things went down.
"Swallow your food whole, fool! Do you not know that mastication makes you go blind?"

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Post by MrProphet » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:42 pm

Yes, yes, we mustn't cross master kk1, lest he loses his cool and acts like a little immature baby... Oh, wait, didn't he just... 8) No matter! Much better to keep him calm and sedated, trapped in his own world where he has all the answers and always has the last world. Can't have it any other way. 8)

In other news, what do you guys think about the direction of TJTG?

I think the hope to see the Jyuukenbu VS. Enforcers has to be abandonded by now. If we ever see the Tournament, it would most likely be in a form we are not accustomed to.

In my opinion, the previous Tournamet with Shin and Mitsuomi rocked so hard that we've always dreamed about something of a similar magnitude, but with new heroes. At least, I can say that I certainly felt that way. But Oh!great wouldn't be himself if he did the expected thing, right?

So, in short term I expect a short foray into the past ala Aya snooping on Kago/Makiko, intervined together with the present story. I think it's going to move back to the school, since a lot of people have been gravitating around the school for some time now, and we kinda abandoned Dougen and Aya's body a bit too soon.

To bad the "Rescue Nagi" mission kinda got nowhere. It's obvious that Inue needs him to complete her dastardly plan, and if she is thwarted, then Mitsuomi won't have an real opposiotion. But it does sort of make Maya's quest to save Nagi somewhat of a joke.

And what about her sacrificing him to stop the war? In her position she is more likely to sacrifice herself.

All in all I hope that all of these loose ends will be addressed, but I am worried, since Oh!great collected a bit too many of those loose ends to tie and he is moving somewhat away from some of the subplots.

Why am I saying it? Well, for one reason, the current arc has been getting a bit overcomplicated. Bowling Alley took just a couple of volumes to set up and address all the issues. Past Arc took twice as much at it wasn't that crazy plotwise. Since volume 8 we've had a single arc that hasn't even started to move to a conclusion, getting more and more convoluted and overbearing.

So, do you think he'll manage to tie off all loose ends with this massive amount of set up material? I mean, it's been 7 volumes already and the thing is not even past the "introducing new plotlines" phase...'

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Post by protocol7 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:24 pm

i agree with prophet when there are time when i really feel oh great is seriously winging it and times when he made things planned.But i will admit there has never been doubt that all the changes were for the better.

this manga really deals with fate and how each character reacts to it.
each generation of the 12 families especially the 3 main nagi,natsume and takayanagi falls into fate.

when mits kicks the bucket it seems mastaka's jealousy of nagi like mits was of shin will lead him to become like mits in the future.

maya wanting to get out of shin shadow then shin dieing and now aya wantsing to get out of maya's shadow and now maya (seems like a vegetable) aya will take over

nagi probably the hardest example took one of his moms hand just like his father did before him.

Like busichi said the whole cycle repeats itself which we might even be seeing more of in this past arc.

personaaly i think the puzzle aya hears is the fate they r fighting against in the end she may need to destroy the puzzle so that she can save everyone.

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Post by Asunder » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:29 pm

Sounds like a job for Time Skip. I'd be pretty amused if next chapter started off with "Three Years Later..." and just ended right there. At this point, I don't Oh! Great really wants to end TJTG (I mean, he probably has a large reader base and probably gets a good deal of money from this), so he's just going to flounder around for a while with this style. Just look at Air Gear. It's pretty much the same thing, except Oh! Great actually set up a real end goal that could possibly be achieved in the next...4 or 5 years. As for TJTG, as people have been saying, it seems like it's Past-Arc followed by a little present, past-past, present, and now past-past-past.

And as an off-note, it's pretty amusing to see two senseis arguing. Where is the love?

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Post by Hollowshingami » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:32 pm

By going this far back, Oh! Great is probably going to show the circumstances surrounding Reiki. Pretty obvious, though, since past Aya is shown holding it in the last panel.

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