Fight 90

Tenjo Tenge: Where the boys are bad, and the girls are badder.

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Post by Hollowshingami » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:48 pm

I still wonder though... We had this argument in the previous thread, but it's still nagging me. If the Families were separated 2000 years ago, like some claim, then why are Shoujou, Kabane, Natsume, Nagi and even Kago (judging by his murder of Nobunaga) working together? It seems like the blood is still one in the 16th century, and I was right.
Who really knows at this point. >_> It does seem like they are working together. Maybe the whole 2000 years ago thing is referring to something else entirely. If you remember in 89 Inue said something along the lines of "for the first time in 2000 years the blood lines were split long ago" and "Today they will become once again". I think she also says to Nagi something about the True Warrior. So maybe the True Warrior is the one that seperated it 2000 years ago. Though that sounds pretty far fetched but then again someone instantly reuniting the blood line in present day is just as far fetched. Oh, by the way how nice of you to toot your own horn. :lol:

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Post by kk1 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:49 pm

MrProphet wrote: I argee.

First of all, we shouldn't judge Aya-2 by the standarts of current Natsume sisters. Current Aya is young and still naive, you can't expect all Natsume to be like her. Heck, even Maya has a crazy, mean and devilish streak in her (e.g. Katana-hunting).

Secondly, she has lead a terrible life, being whored out by her comrades and (probably) superiors and she was just brought up differently from the current generation.
But we just saw she isn't really being whored out, she just uses the dragon eye to make people see what they want. And while I agree the dragon eye leads to some cruel behaviorwhile using it as we've seen from before,but this Aya consciously decided to be cruel. When she finds that girl hiding she had already stopped using the dragon's eye. And as we can see from our Aya's reaction this is supposed to be shocking and cruel.

MrProphet wrote:
I still wonder though... We had this argument in the previous thread, but it's still nagging me. If the Families were separated 2000 years ago, like some claim, then why are Shoujou, Kabane, Natsume, Nagi and even Kago (judging by his murder of Nobunaga) working together? It seems like the blood is still one in the 16th century, and I was right.
It is seperate. I don't think everyone is grasping the original structure of the families. The Takayanagi contol everything and all 12 families red and white feather serve them, that's why they are working together. It would still be that way today but as Dougen explained before, in modern times the red feathers just became "obsolete" and their talents unused. This whole deal of them fighting each other whites vs reds is all Souhaku's doing in only the past 15 years which is whythe present situation doesn't resemble the past at all. Though as we saw when Makiko was trying to train Nagi, Dougen and the previous generation still maintained this situation.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:04 pm

protocol7 wrote:it might just be that past aya has it for nagi like shin had it for maya.from what i can see so the families are working as assasins to basically kill histroical figures.

im just wondering why.even present aya was shocked at nagi's age wow. well kabane and shouju seems to have heavy links and work with the natsume's maybe there all in league
It's all under the Takayanagi's orders, OG is obviously showing us how the Takayanagi became so rich and powerful in the present by showing they were the real influence behind the scenes in Japanese history.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:14 pm

Hmm this chapter has made me rethink Souhaku's power, we saw him controling Fu, and Madoka with those charms. Then we see Tetsu turn to a dried up corpse after his defeat, and Souhaku had been meditating like when he was contolling Fu in his fight, do you think maybe Souhaku had been controlling a dead Tetsuhito this whole time?

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Post by shouki » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:22 pm

kk1 wrote:But we just saw she isn't really being whored out, she just uses the dragon eye to make people see what they want. And while I agree the dragon eye leads to some cruel behaviorwhile using it as we've seen from before,but this Aya consciously decided to be cruel. When she finds that girl hiding she had already stopped using the dragon's eye. And as we can see from our Aya's reaction this is supposed to be shocking and cruel.
I agree.

When Aya starts the Dragon Eye treatment on Midori, Shoujou says something like "*sigh* she's started again - she could just instantly kill them", and Kabane says something like "This isn't justice, forgive me". They don't seem to agree with Aya's actions to me. btw, if you look carefully at the 26th image file (page 087.jpg) you can see Aya using Reiki slightly (glowing rings around it's handle). Not sure why she seems to have tears in her eyes in the next frame, but she does seem to be having fun - a sadist.

Maybe a better comparison would be with the amoral ninjas from Basilisk...

btw, when she knocks Nagi away (using Reiki) she says something like "Don't come within 6 feet of me - I've told you countless times!" She certainly doesn't like Nagi at all. Maybe she's worried about him taking her Dragon's Eye, or maybe she just can't stand people from the Nagi family. They others don't seem to mind.

It is seperate. I don't think everyone is grasping the original structure of the families. The Takayanagi contol everything and all 12 families red and white feather serve them, that's why they are working together. It would still be that way today but as Dougen explained before, in modern times the red feathers just became "obsolete" and their talents unused. This whole deal of them fighting each other whites vs reds is all Souhaku's doing in only the past 15 years which is whythe present situation doesn't resemble the past at all. Though as we saw when Makiko was trying to train Nagi, Dougen and the previous generation still maintained this situation.
I wonder if this Aya is the official leader of the group?

Anyway, it seems reasonably safe to assume that the modern Kabane and Shoujou will work along side Aya in modern times too. I wonder where they've been until now though - were they in hiding (or similar)? If so, why did they turn up now? Was Dougen in secret contact with them?

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Post by shouki » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:25 pm

kk1 wrote:Hmm this chapter has made me rethink Souhaku's power, we saw him controling Fu, and Madoka with those charms. Then we see Tetsu turn to a dried up corpse after his defeat, and Souhaku had been meditating like when he was contolling Fu in his fight, do you think maybe Souhaku had been controlling a dead Tetsuhito this whole time?
The previous times one of his toys was defeated, he seemed to have a backlash reaction. I don't think his toys allows walking corpses to look alive/normal either - just look at Fu.

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Post by protocol7 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:29 pm

i think the present maya is not as cruel as people think for all we know the fact that the girl saw them warranted thier death she is a professional after all.even if she kills more people in the most horrendous ways i still won't care it sure beats her damn crying.

what most intrigues me is past aya's relationship with nagi.i want to see some clarity with this so maybe i can understand why aya is so fixated with him presently.

the blood splitting means not the families breaking up but the original true warrior dieing and having his powers and skill split between the children.

what we are seeing past aya use is the total power of the dragon eye both the hipnosis of the enmi and the the power of forsight.well such is life when is the next chapter coming out

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Post by kk1 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:38 pm

shouki wrote:
kk1 wrote:But we just saw she isn't really being whored out, she just uses the dragon eye to make people see what they want. And while I agree the dragon eye leads to some cruel behaviorwhile using it as we've seen from before,but this Aya consciously decided to be cruel. When she finds that girl hiding she had already stopped using the dragon's eye. And as we can see from our Aya's reaction this is supposed to be shocking and cruel.
I agree.

When Aya starts the Dragon Eye treatment on Midori, Shoujou says something like "*sigh* she's started again - she could just instantly kill them", and Kabane says something like "This isn't justice, forgive me". They don't seem to agree with Aya's actions to me. btw, if you look carefully at the 26th image file (page 087.jpg) you can see Aya using Reiki slightly (glowing rings around it's handle). Not sure why she seems to have tears in her eyes in the next frame, but she does seem to be having fun - a sadist.

Maybe a better comparison would be with the amoral ninjas from Basilisk...

btw, when she knocks Nagi away (using Reiki) she says something like "Don't come within 6 feet of me - I've told you countless times!" She certainly doesn't like Nagi at all. Maybe she's worried about him taking her Dragon's Eye, or maybe she just can't stand people from the Nagi family. They others don't seem to mind.
Interesting, OG's been teasing us with something big happening when the Dragon Eye, and Dragon Fist get together could be.

shouki wrote:
It is seperate. I don't think everyone is grasping the original structure of the families. The Takayanagi contol everything and all 12 families red and white feather serve them, that's why they are working together. It would still be that way today but as Dougen explained before, in modern times the red feathers just became "obsolete" and their talents unused. This whole deal of them fighting each other whites vs reds is all Souhaku's doing in only the past 15 years which is whythe present situation doesn't resemble the past at all. Though as we saw when Makiko was trying to train Nagi, Dougen and the previous generation still maintained this situation.
I wonder if this Aya is the official leader of the group?

Anyway, it seems reasonably safe to assume that the modern Kabane and Shoujou will work along side Aya in modern times too. I wonder where they've been until now though - were they in hiding (or similar)? If so, why did they turn up now? Was Dougen in secret contact with them?
Hmmm I think you may have something there, as we saw Dougen looks to have been faking his ouster by Mits and is now putting his plan into action, maybe they're a part of it.

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Post by kk1 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:47 pm

shouki wrote:
kk1 wrote:Hmm this chapter has made me rethink Souhaku's power, we saw him controling Fu, and Madoka with those charms. Then we see Tetsu turn to a dried up corpse after his defeat, and Souhaku had been meditating like when he was contolling Fu in his fight, do you think maybe Souhaku had been controlling a dead Tetsuhito this whole time?
The previous times one of his toys was defeated, he seemed to have a backlash reaction. I don't think his toys allows walking corpses to look alive/normal either - just look at Fu.
Well Shin did that to Fu, but was Fu dead or not? He started thanking Masatka until Tets killed him. And the only backlash was with Fu because he was augmenting Fu's power which then got sent back to him when Masatka broke his control. I don't know I'm just trying to throw stuff out there as to why he turned all old, I put out there before that him and Souhaku are really old but that seems wrong too. Oh well, guess we'll have to wait and see.

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Post by Hollowshingami » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:47 pm

The plot thickens. Maybe something in the oh so distant past happend when a member of the Nagi family had the Dragon's eye and the Dragon's fist. And past Aya saw it? But it seems more likely she is simply afraid of it being taken by little Nagi. 8) Maybe something will be revealed in the next chapter.

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Post by EliteF22 » Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:03 pm

Well, its been stated in the manga before, that in the past the Nagi family of exorcists were despised because they had the power to take others powers. Past Aya obviously enjoys using her powers, so of course she would want to keep him at a distance. Might explain why it seems like they have a child of the Nagi family, instead of a stronger adult member with them. An adult might be too powerful for them if they turned against each other.

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Post by Asunder » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:04 pm

Little Nagi just gets cuter and cuter as I look over the chapter more and more. I guess it's just another way O!G is trying to refocus the story on Souichirou. Though I have no clue what they're saying, I'd assume that the other prostitute wasn't exactly the worst person in the world. It seems like Souhaku has the right idea about these red feathers, they just like to abuse their power, at the cost of regular people. If Souhaku is really that old, it doesn't surprise me that he's so cruel, either.

Image

Nagi being concerned for Natsume? I have doubts he's being voyeuristic because of more adult um... inclinations. And this is despite the fact that Natsume hates him. How cute.

Image

Oh, and are we certain that Inue is from an offshoot family of the Kago line? Something about the way she clutches his head and the way they were treating severed heads in this chapter just irks me.

Edit: I was looking at a few things in Chapter 89. Maybe it was the same team that ended up killing Nobunga. There's the bug illusion part and the beheading part.
Last edited by Asunder on Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Hollowshingami » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:43 pm

I think it's very possible she saw Souhaku as a means to a end. She might be striving for a situation where the red feathers become important like they were during this time period. I also find it interesting that the Aya and Nagi relationship is reversed in this situation. With Aya pushing away Nagi. Although it's much more extreme in this case. Nagi in the present was never as cruel as past Aya was in this chapter. I'm still surprised even a couple chapters later that Souhaku was taken out just like that. I was hoping for a fight between him and Souichirou. :?

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Post by EliteF22 » Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:03 am

The talk about Inue being behind everything helped me realise something. Though I don't agree that Inue is somehow the mastermind, her pledge to Souhaku about giving her life for the cause, back in volume 13 I think, now makes total sense. Souhaku must have known that he wouldn't live to see Souichirou transformed, so he had Inue ready to finish the job. It really seems that Souhaku had no plans to fight Souichirou and may have planned to have Mitsuomi kill him from the start. Thus, giving birth to the "evil malice" within Souichirou.

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Post by Hollowshingami » Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:20 am

I still would of liked to see that guy get his teeth knocked down his throat. 8)
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Post by kk1 » Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:28 am

Asunder wrote:

Oh, and are we certain that Inue is from an offshoot family of the Kago line? Something about the way she clutches his head and the way they were treating severed heads in this chapter just irks me.

.
When did anyone say that?

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Post by MrProphet » Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:40 am

kk1 wrote:
Asunder wrote:Oh, and are we certain that Inue is from an offshoot family of the Kago line? Something about the way she clutches his head and the way they were treating severed heads in this chapter just irks me..
When did anyone say that?
It's not officially confirmed in any way, but it is somewhat logical. Kago's power has something to do with mind control (hence Madoka's and Fu's adventures), so it would be reasonable to suppose that Inue's Dragon Roar powers are an offshoot of Kago's Dragon Gate.

Similar to how Enmi's Dragon Pupil is the offshoot of Natsume's Dragon Eye.

Again, it's not 100%, but it's a reasonable supposition.

Also, I think that I like the explanation for "the blood splitting apart" given by someone above. It is in fact possible that the True Warrior was in fact the Takayanagi ancestor who possessed the powers of all 12 families 2000 years ago. His children must have inherited some of his powers and formed the 12 families.

That would explain why the Families serve the Takayanagi and how the blood was split.

So, when Nagi steals all the dragons, he is fact becomes the True Warrior according to Souhaku's reasoning, and reunited all the Red and White powers in a single individual.

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Post by kk1 » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:34 am

MrProphet wrote:
kk1 wrote:
Asunder wrote:Oh, and are we certain that Inue is from an offshoot family of the Kago line? Something about the way she clutches his head and the way they were treating severed heads in this chapter just irks me..
When did anyone say that?
It's not officially confirmed in any way, but it is somewhat logical. Kago's power has something to do with mind control (hence Madoka's and Fu's adventures), so it would be reasonable to suppose that Inue's Dragon Roar powers are an offshoot of Kago's Dragon Gate.

Similar to how Enmi's Dragon Pupil is the offshoot of Natsume's Dragon Eye.

Again, it's not 100%, but it's a reasonable supposition.

Also, I think that I like the explanation for "the blood splitting apart" given by someone above. It is in fact possible that the True Warrior was in fact the Takayanagi ancestor who possessed the powers of all 12 families 2000 years ago. His children must have inherited some of his powers and formed the 12 families.

That would explain why the Families serve the Takayanagi and how the blood was split.

So, when Nagi steals all the dragons, he is fact becomes the True Warrior according to Souhaku's reasoning, and reunited all the Red and White powers in a single individual.

Uhh didn't we already all know that? Wasn't that explained a long time ago in the first flashback or the UJ special?

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Post by MrProphet » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:13 am

A more certain reference, please.

So far, I don't remember any link between the True Warrior and the source of the 12 families mentioned in the manga.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:16 am

I'm still not sure about the character that started out the chapter and sings all the time. Given my translation on Page 80, I'm thinking it is more likely that the speaker is Ono Jiro Emon Tadaaki, and I would change my translation on page 70 to: "Ono Jiro Emon Tadaaki, Itou Ittousai's favorite student" which I think is more correct from a gramatical point of view.

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Post by MrProphet » Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:37 am

I argee and you are correct Judging by page 80 and page 73, he is indeed Tadaaki, not Ittosai.
Author: fugu Language: English: Master Ittousai was recommended to become the fist of the Tokugawa family, but the conditions were that "you obliterate Zenki, who has become a killing demon" ... Jirou, who accomlished the task admirably, who became a Shogunate retainer was an effulgent light in the history of swordsmanship and founded the "Ittou-ryu" school of fighting.
Actually, Ittosai recomended Tadaaki to become a master-at-arms of the Tokugawa household, not the other way around. So, the blond guy must be Tadaaki.

I think what has happened in this chapter was that Shoujou poses as Sakuma Zenki, visits Ono Tadaaki, kills him, assumes his identity and becomes Tokugawa's retainer.

There is a historical record of Ono Tadaaki fighting someone called "Zenki", so Oh!great could once again be weaving history together with fiction.
Sometime during his fiftieth year, Itto Ittosai, creator of the famed Itto ryu decided that the time had come for him to devote the rest of his life to the service of Buddha. However, before leaving the world of normal men, Itto was faced with the task of making sure that his ryu would be passed down to the next generation. Taking his two top students to a quiet field, Itto had them fight a duel to the death to decide who would be the next headmaster of the Itto ryu. The winner of the duel received Itto's sword as well as a scroll containing the secrets of Itto's style. The two students were named Zenki and Ono. During the duel, Zenki was killed and later, Ono became a tutor of the Tokugawa shoguns. Unlike many of the sword schools in Japan that trace their origins to some divine revelation, the Itto ryu was a system that evolved directly from the experiences of its founder. Thus, it is one of the most practical of all of the old schools of Japanese swordsmanship.
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Post by kk1 » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:36 am

Hmm loos like OG is using historical characters but not really sticking to history, at least in this case (I guess he did in Nobunaga's case). Although I guess if what's his name kept impersonating Tadaaki it could be made similar :? Guess we'll have to wait until next month to see if there's a point.

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Post by kk1 » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:26 am

MrProphet wrote:A more certain reference, please.

So far, I don't remember any link between the True Warrior and the source of the 12 families mentioned in the manga.
Makiko mentions Souhaku saying that after tetsuhito told the story of his family.But rereading the UJ Special and Dougen in vol 8 they really don't mention anything, in fact in reading the UJ special again it sounds more like they aren't related or descended from 1 guy. Just the Takayanagis were descended from some past heros but the 12 families weren't descended from the same ones. Unless like Makiko said about Tetsuhito's family history that all the families have a similar story and it was the same guy founding all the families. Seems kinda odd since only half the families have powers, and if they are descended from the same guy why didn't they all get powers? Plus from Tetsuhito's story it seems his family traces their power from a woman, seems the Natsumes do too. But who knows again looks like we're going to have to wait until Oh! Great tells us. Of course what else could Inue possibly mean if not that?

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Post by EliteF22 » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:31 pm

Alright, looks like this past Arc may not last that long. That past night was the one "closest to his ideals", and "died the true death." I wonder if their talking about Souhaku or Souhaku's relative. I still think that it was Souhaku back then and that he extends his life some how. Looks like we'll see what was being planned for the night and then go back to the present.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Sun Jan 22, 2006 5:50 pm

It said that was the only time he could have "died the true death" - so it seems to me that in the present arc, Mitsuomi did not kill him.

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Post by EliteF22 » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:14 pm

Cool, I used to think that Souhaku could only die if he didn't have his gate anymore. That might just be true. Hey, Fugu where are you located now? Japan or still in the States?

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Post by FuguTabetai » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:39 pm

EliteF22 wrote:Cool, I used to think that Souhaku could only die if he didn't have his gate anymore. That might just be true. Hey, Fugu where are you located now? Japan or still in the States?
Still in the States until my work visa comes though. I'll be in Japan in March sometime.

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Post by protocol7 » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:39 pm

well just read the full translation seems that even though past aya is a prostitute she ain't putting out at all unless u wanted have fun with bugs :twisted: .

seriously seems sorta sadistic but who cares it was funny as hell.well from the translation it seems that the power of the families seemed to be that of urban legend and fear from what the swordsman said that it couldn't be them and even choosing to retreat from battle even wiht his legendary sword skills.

when aya said she had to try every time not to bust a gut when he came over lol just had to crack a smile.she's now my fav female character she puts it down better than maya lol.don't wanna meet that bitch in a black alley.

the whole chapter like the last shows the power of the families seeming to be like the shogun of the dark controlling the country from the shadows out of the reach of the mainstream politics of the period and also putting them in this manga out of the official records of japenese history.

as we saw they clean up well after they do a job no witnesses.

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Post by EliteF22 » Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:15 pm

Lol, yeah past Aya does seem awesome in a evil bitch sorta way. It is interesting how the red feather's are used as assassins. Nagi supposed to be higher status than Natsume though. I always thought that Natsume was the highest for red feather's.

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Post by Asunder » Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:56 pm

EliteF22 wrote:Lol, yeah past Aya does seem awesome in a evil bitch sorta way. It is interesting how the red feather's are used as assassins. Nagi supposed to be higher status than Natsume though. I always thought that Natsume was the highest for red feather's.
I guess it sort of makes sense for the Nagi clan to have higher status. They're the police force, after all.

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Post by Agent_Wax » Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:08 pm

I'm sorry, but I don't see what's so difficult to understand about the spliting of the bloodlines. I thought it was pretty clearly implied that the ancestor, the True Warrior founded all the families through his children, some of whom he passed his powers to. Others received some of his knowledge and skills (eg archery). This is why all the families have similar founding myths, and explains why they've stuck together all this time. Over time, fortunes rose and fell, and initially it seems that the Natsume were of the highest standing, then Nagi, and now Takayanagi.

And Fugu, you used the wrong character for 'Aya' in your translation. I don't know why it was changed from last chapter... perhaps one is an assumed brothel stagename.

And... the KAGO room?! Warming by the RED lanterns? Suspicious...
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Post by Hollowshingami » Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:30 pm

Hmm, this is weird. I wonder if Akechi Mistuhide's soul, if that is indeed him chopping off Nobunaga's head, is reborn into his decendents with his goal in mind or that is Souhaku's doing himself? Because if you remember in volume 14 the extra content that showed Makiko and Souhaku, Souhaku looked rather young. Unless, of course he can make himself appear younger. Damn, this manga for being monthly. :D

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Post by Agent_Wax » Sun Jan 22, 2006 10:52 pm

Hmm, this is weird. I wonder if Akechi Mistuhide's soul, if that is indeed him chopping off Nobunaga's head, is reborn into his decendents with his goal in mind or that is Souhaku's doing himself? Because if you remember in volume 14 the extra content that showed Makiko and Souhaku, Souhaku looked rather young. Unless, of course he can make himself appear younger. Damn, this manga for being monthly.


That was from before Soichirou was born, so it's only logical he would be younger, assuming he ages normally.

On the other hand, I don't think Mitsuhide was an ancestor of Souhaku. They have the same EVERYTHING.

And on that, doesn't it strike you as weird that Souhaku and Tetsuhito kept their same hairstyles for at least 8 years? Who keeps the same hairstyle for 8 years? :lol: These guys need new hairdressers.
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Post by Hollowshingami » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:11 pm

The thing that gets me is that after Testuhito is dead he ends looking like a shrivled old man, if he's not that old then I wonder if having that eye planted in him had an effect on him? As for the hairstyles, I don't think that kind of hair is very manageable. :P Well they we were living in a cave for quite some time. So being cut off the outside world might of kept them out of touch.

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Post by EliteF22 » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:34 pm

There's been subtle hints of Souhaku's age throughout the manga. From all of these I gather that he's at least a lot older than he looks. First off Mitsuhide states that through his long life Nobunaga was the only one he respected, hinting that he's a lot older than he looks. Thus, the Kago family at least has some way to extend their lives. Then you have the extra pages in volume 14 where, young looking Souhaku is talking to Makiko, he talks a lot older than he looks and he mentions he planned out moving her among different places. That's quite something for a guy who looks 14 or 15. Then you have Tet's smashing people into little flesh balls, he already has some of the dragons and if you compare his early appearance to 8 years later, he hadn't aged at all. Souhaku also stated that he had perfected the acupuncture technique that allowed the transfer of the dragons. Since Tet's had some dragons already in the past then Souhaku is either a genuis or older than he appears. Given this there is a possiblity that Mitsuhide and Souhaku are the same person.

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Post by FuguTabetai » Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:53 pm

Agent_Wax wrote: And Fugu, you used the wrong character for 'Aya' in your translation. I don't know why it was changed from last chapter... perhaps one is an assumed brothel stagename.
I wrote the wrong one once (used the present arc's Aya) but didn't notice at all if the characters changed after she gives up her act. I'm not really too motivated to go back and check now though. :P

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:31 am

Interesting last bit about Osaka Castle....

Tokugawa family didn't gain control of the Osaka Castle untill after 1615, which would mean that chapter 90 takes place at least 33 years since Nobunaga's death in chapter 89.

But what struck me, is that Aya in the beginning of chapter 89 (page 33) looks absolutely the same age as Aya at the end of chapter 89 (page 61) and in chapter 90.

Does she not age as well?
Agent_Wax wrote:Over time, fortunes rose and fell, and initially it seems that the Natsume were of the highest standing, then Nagi, and now Takayanagi.
Not exactly. Shoujou mentiones the feared "Takayanagi Twelve Founding Families", so the Takayanagi must have always been on top, and only the fortunes of their Red and White underlings have changed.

The comment Maya has made in the previous volumes about Natsume stading higher than Takayanagi at one time must have either been blustering, or a referral to REALLY ancient times, before the Takayanagi consolidated the clans.

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Post by EliteF22 » Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:03 am

Where in the chapter does it say that the Tokugawa family is in control of the castle at this time in the story?

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:25 am

Reiki said that Tadaaki was going to serve the Tokugawa family, so wouldn't it be safe to assume that they do already control the castle, since the action is moving there.

And anyway, even if I am wrong, construction of the Osaka Castle was not completed untill 1598, which is 16 years since Nobunaga's death. So, the question still stands: Why does she not age at all?

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Post by Agent_Wax » Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:38 am

Histery of Osakajo:

Toyotomi Hideyoshi started building Osaka Castle in 1583 where Ishiyama Honganji stood. It took 15 years to fully complete all the outer walls and moats. But construction was in stages, and the heart of the castle was completed in 2. Tokugawa defeated Toyotomi's son, Hideyori, at Sekigahara in 1603, but didn't manage to seize Osakajo until 1615. From 1583 to 1615, Osaka was pretty much under the control of the Toyotomi dynasty.

Oh, and Ono did not enter Tokugawa's service until 1593, when he was 28. He fought in Sekigahara on Tokugawa's side.
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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:33 am

OK, here's the sequence of events I came up with...

Chapter 89 (Nobunaga's death) takes place in 1582.

The end of chapter 89 (Aya with Reiki) and Chapter 90 (Aya in the brothel) takes place in 1593. Shoujou impersonates Sakuma Zenki, then kills Ono Tadaaki, and becomes a Tokugawa retainer after impersonating Ono Tadaaki.

The end of chapter 90 with the Osaka Castle and all the future chapters (91+) is the case of Reiki Ghost jumping into the future to describe what has happened at the Osakajo 30+ years later, when the Tokugawa already control the castle and the Twelve Families have already consolidated their power base in there.

That would fit both Aya's age, Shoujou's impersonation of Ono Tadaaki, and the rumours about Akechi Mitsuhide (or Kago impersonating Mitsuhide) surfacing as an advisor to the Tokugawa shogun.

I don't think that would be unreasonable to suggest that this Aya...

Image


...is 10 years older than this Aya...
Image

It's a stretch, but still possible, right?

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Post by shouki » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:30 am

MrProphet wrote:I don't think that would be unreasonable to suggest that this Aya...

Image


...is 10 years older than this Aya...
Image

It's a stretch, but still possible, right?
Well, that's just one frame of this "gentle" looking person who looks like Aya (and has same hair organments as the "prostitue Aya" at the end of the chapter). We don't know the context. It's mixed with Nobonaga's stuff so we assume she's supposed to be there, but it isn't directly shown. She doesn't have Reiki in that picture either. She could be the elder sister or even mother of the "prostitue Aya".

So they're not necessarily the same person.

btw, this "prostitue Aya" feels kinda young to me. I think it's quite unlikely that many people are a lot older than they look in this series.

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:48 am

Unless it's a totally different person (of which I see no evidence), I just can't think of another way to explain all the discrepancies.

Prostitute Aya must be 10 years older to fit the chronology. So, either she uses illusion to hide her true age (she is capable of it), or she just just managed to keep her youthful looks by other means. Or, it's a different person with Nobunaga...

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Post by shouki » Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:43 am

MrProphet wrote:Unless it's a totally different person (of which I see no evidence), I just can't think of another way to explain all the discrepancies.
Given that we have just one page that says little by itself, I think it's probably best to ignore it unless the author decides to make things clearer - there's so little evidence. For example, if that really is prostitute Aya, and she really is with Nobonaga while he's being attacked, she looks awfully passive...

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Post by MrProphet » Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:49 am

True, it does't prove anything by itself. In that you are correct.

Yet it seems awefully similar to the way Shoujou and Kabane ambushed Ono Tadaaki.

The modus operandi seems the same: Aya approaches the victim, becomes his lover, then another member of the families approaches undercover and disposes of the victim with the help of Aya's Dragon Gate power.

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Post by kk1 » Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:42 pm

I don't really think those pics of past Aya last chapter had anything to do with the Nobunaga story, it was more like OG was just showing a little preview of this chapter.

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Post by Ricco » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:49 am

Don't know if anyone else noticed that the super thin monk has the same eye "seals" as Kabane.

And since both work with a partener I guess Shyoujyou is the decendant of Mr.Mimic.

And since both worked with Aya and Nagi I guess they are good guys or at least loyal to the Natsume family IMHO...
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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:10 am

Thin monk? You mean Kabane Myouun? Well, naturally, he is Kabane's forefather. They have the same name. 8)

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Post by Ricco » Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:17 am

MrProphet wrote:Thin monk? You mean Kabane Myouun? Well, naturally, he is Kabane's forefather. They have the same name. 8)
I see...
Anybody has a big rock I can hide under for a week or two? :oops:
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Post by MrProphet » Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:31 pm

Is it really necessary? I think you were making a good point about them working together.

I am not sure about their loyalty to Natsume (they seem to be somewhat disgusted by Aya's penchant for mental torture), but they do seem to be working in tandem.

I wonder whether the present world Kabane and Shoujou are working for someone, or they are just together because of many-generational friendship of their families?

Oh, and by the way, regarding the True Warrior. I was checking out the two girls back in volume 14 and it seems like you were correct, kk1, it was already confirmed earlier. Not outright, but rather clearly. Here's a quote:
Kabane wrote:"Power" can usually only be applied in one direction...

That pressure is brittle when attacked on the flank. And the bigger the "power" the bigger those "weak points" are going to become.

A long time ago, in order to cover for the deficiencies in those weaknessess, the Takayanagi blood was split up amoung the twelve founding families.

For example, for this - ... "Dragon's Eye" which can consume an unlimited supply of "ki", there was the "Dragon's Fist" which can collect and supply huge amounts of ki.
So, the question will now be: Is Inue lying to Nagi about him becoming the True Warrior, or is Kabane misinformed about the origin of the Families? Or perhaps the title of the True Warrior can change hands based on whoever possesses all the powers of the Twelve Families? The latter seems rather probable.

Now, too bad our hopes for Masataka are quenched so easily. No way he can outdo Nagi in combining the Red and White powers...

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