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Yet another thread

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:51 am
by cg
Hey, creiz here.
By way of introduction: everybody makes mistakes from time to time, I'm no exception, that's why when dealing with Japanese, a language so unlike any European languages, I usually review my understanding and my translations later, after sufficient time has passed. And sometimes I end up correcting them.

I am simply loving DOGS - adorable characters, a well thought-out plot, beautiful art and magnificent atmosphere. Of course, I'm a proud owner of all 5 tankos of D:B&C and a volume of orignal Dogs story. Rereading 'em quite often.

I've read through the last two - now, thanks to you, three - chapters, and there're some things I'd like to point out. I'm not going to account for things like English stylistics, grammar, etc, just the meaning of phrases.

Chapter 48
Not much text there. Overall, correct. My only suggestion would be try to pay a bit more attention to various modifiers and reflect the meaning nuances brought by them in your translation. Like in this phrase on p5: Kono *kurai* de shinu na yo, Heine. This 'kurai' adds, in particular, that Giovanni doesn't want Heine to die from *such an insignificant (from Gio's pov)* damage.

Chapter 49
p1: Did you get that the cig Dave gave Badou was chocolate? Sorry, I just wasn't sure from the translation that you did, so I decided to mention it. Badou wanted a real cigarette, yet Dave tricked him and gave him a chocolate one. This is a reference to the separate oneshot "White cigarette and bubblegum" (I'm sure you read it) where Dave says the same thing if paraphrased a bit. At the same time it's a link to the chapter content that follows (when Badou substitutes real cigarettes with chocolate ones).

p3: The case of mixing up kanji - it's not è¡—, it's è¡“. Can happen to anyone. The whole phrase will be You easily fell for his hypnosis and gave me a slug.

p.4: 昔 is linked with è»￾施設 (as an attribute), it's not on its own, so it's the millitary facility that existed in the underground *in past*, not Badou's brother investagating it *in past*.

Good. Almost correct. 仕入れ is the warehouses from one of Badou's flashbacks (don't remember what chapter from, sorry) to where he and Dave usually lured their opponents. And yes, once Badou on his own decided to follow Dave there.

ã￾￾ん時 足を引ã￾£å¼µã￾£ã￾¦å…„è²´ã￾¯æ­»ã‚“ã￾˜ã￾¾ã￾£ã￾Ÿã￾®ã￾•
And that time Badou got under Dave's feet (足を引ã￾£å¼µã‚‹), and Dave got killed because of this.

ã￾ªã￾‚ダンナ ã￾‚ã‚“ã￾Ÿã€€ã￾“ã￾®è¡—ã￾Œã￾¾ã￾ è¿‘隣ã￾®éƒ½å¸‚ã￾¨ã￾￾ã￾£ã￾¤ã￾„ã￾¦ã€€å¤§ã￾￾ã￾ªå›½ã￾ ã￾£ã￾Ÿé ƒã￾®ã￾“ã￾¨çŸ¥ã￾£ã￾¦ã‚‹ã￾‹ï¼Ÿ
Danna is more like... 'master'. It's a vernacular, but it's still pretty respectful, especially coming from Badou.
ã￾￾ã￾£ã￾¤ã￾￾ means "to keep close to", or, in this case, "to keep close connections with", so we get the meaning: Do you remember the times when one big country still existed and our city (being a part of this big country) still kept close connections with other neighboring cities?

p5: 俺もã￾‚ã￾®åŠ‡å ´ã￾§ã￾‚ã￾®é‡ŽéƒŽã￾¨ã‚„ã‚Šå￾ˆã￾£ã￾¦ãƒ‰ã‚¸ã￾£ã￾Ÿä¸Šã￾«æ­»ã￾«æ￾￾ã￾ªã￾£ã￾¡ã￾¾ã￾£ã￾Ÿã€‚後ã￾«ã￾¯å¼•ã￾‘ã‚“ã￾•ã€‚
Ah, a pretty tricky one, got me thinking. The meaning of Mihai's words is as follows: I'm a fine one, too, to be sure - having screwed up like this engaging in a chit-chat with this bastard in that theater - but YOU almost ended up dead there (regardless of my screwing up). And next time you may end up dead for real. If you need more explanation on why this is what he says, I'll be happy to try to provide it.

p9: ã￾‹ã￾ªã‚Šã‚„られã￾¦ã‚‹ã￾ª
Not sure what you meant, but just in case the meaning is: The city took a great deal of damage, can be paraphrased in a lot of ways.

p15: å½¼ã￾Œä½•ã￾ ã￾£ã￾¦è¨€ã￾†ã‚“ã￾ ã￾„
No, Heine didn't say anything to anyone. This sentence can be divided into 2 parts: å½¼ã￾Œä½•ã￾  and ã￾£ã￾¦è¨€ã￾†ã‚“ã￾ ã￾„. How would you translate these parts independently of each other? Obviously: 1) What is he? 2) So you're trying to say...? Now merge 'em and you'll get what Lisa asked here: Is this your way of asking me "What is he"?

å½¼ã￾Œå‘¼ã‚“ã￾ ã￾¨ï¼Ÿ
Same as with the previous. You're saying that it was him who called them here?

p18: 今ã￾®ã￾“ã￾®è¡—ã￾¨ã￾‚ã‚“ã￾Ÿã￾®è€ƒã￾ˆã￾Œã￾•
Your translation will do, but just a quick note: just like æ€￾ã￾„ means not only "thoughts", but "feelings" as well, 考ã￾ˆ also means "intentions".

FYI: "Carnaval" is a club (or rather a brothel) that was owned by Melwin Scrooge and got trashed by Heine and Badou behind-the-scene in the very beginning of the manga.

The whole Naoto's encouraging monologue is not a difficult one, but is a real pain in the ass when you're trying to word what she meant in any other language... And this particular phrase is the icing on the cake. It's a negation of a negation, as ã￾©ã￾†ã￾§ã‚‚ã￾„ã￾„ is "I don't care/ Whatever" and then we still have ã￾˜ã‚ƒã￾ªã￾„ on our hands here. So the double negation = "I care", and, using the previous context, we get the following meaning: I've come to care (about something other than my chasing after my past). And continuing: But I think this is exactly how wanting to protect something should feel. Something like that. Yeah. Naoto wins the first prize for the shortest, yet surprisingly long-winded speech in DOGS.

Chapter 50
p1: ã￾Šè†³ç«‹ã￾¦ã￾¯äºˆå®šé€šã‚Šã￾—ã￾¦ã‚„ã￾£ã￾Ÿ
In the second phrase Herbst's keeps talking about preparations (yes, ã￾Šè†³ç«‹ã￾¦ means "setting the table", but taken figuratively it also means "preparations") he mentioned in his first phrase. And in the first phrase of his he's not talking about Giovanni, but rather about himself. And it's generally better to translate this construction without mentioning who's the one doing it all, for instance: Preparations went as planned.
無駄ã￾«ã￾•ã‚Œã‚‹ means simply "to waste". Thus, Herbst's second phrase: It would be quite unfortunate if all these preparations went to waste.

p12: 抜ã￾‹ã‚Šã￾¯ã￾ªã￾„
More like There can't be a miss/Preparations are flawless, something like that. But I guess "No escape" could be viewed as the sense development technique here.

So, what advise I can give you. First, sticking to the wordings that are as close to original as possible is certainly not a bad thing in my opinion, but it only works in the case when you have grasped the deeper meaning as well, otherwise your sentence might not make much sense.

Also I strongly advice you to keep a keen eye on who's talking and follow the logic of sentences. It helps. Compared to your previous DOGS translations you're certainly getting better at the former:)) Now try to remember about the latter. If you feel something is falling short of being logical, the chances are your understanding is incorrect. It's the "pink elephants" rule, you know. On p4 in ch48 Mihai warns Badou about sticking his nose into a dangerous business and then he continues further elaborating on the subject. Same with p1 in ch50 with Herbst talking about preparations. Logic.

Keep up and don't let my or anyone else's comments dispirit you. Just try to glean something useful for you out of it. And practice never hurts, right?;)

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:56 pm
by FuguTabetai
detailed notes. thanks.

Re: Yet another thread

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:34 pm
by FuguTabetai

Re: Yet another thread

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:32 am
by cg

Re: Yet another thread

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:39 pm
by FuguTabetai

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:50 am
by FuguTabetai
Thanks for the comments. In particular:
cg wrote: Keep up and don't let my or anyone else's comments dispirit you. Just try to glean something useful for you out of it. And practice never hurts, right?
That's the only reason I've kept at it for all these years.

And I should mention, this is absolutely, without a doubt, the most useful language related thing that has ever come out of all this translation. I've tried to put my stuff out there in forms that are useful for people interested in manga in Japanese, but almost never get interesting and useful feedback out of it.

I can't believe it took 11 years. Granted, the first four or five years of my stuff was pretty crap, but still.

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:16 pm
by cg
I'm melting like ice here from such compliments, you know))) I admire your patience - it's no small feat to follow manga such as DOGS what with it's being published only once a month and with hiatuses now and then for so many years without fail (I for one have been following DOGS for about... only 4 or 5 months? and sometimes during a month long wait I feel my patience wearing thin) and devotion to translating. And special huge thanks for providing raws in Japanese, it's thanks to you that I discovered this great (and severely underrated) manga and was able to satisfy the desire to read it in its original language.

I wish you all the luck in the world!